Can Lasers plane to windward?

Admiral Hornblower

Super Anarchist
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NE Ohio
I heard rumors of this being done in Lasers, Laser Radials specifically. Is this possible or is it a myth?

Large_Day%205August%202016%20056.JPG


This picture almost looks like the bow is planning slightly...

192e037d828a19b10d63632179bedf86.png
another example...

 

Bruce Hudson

Super Anarchist
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New Zealand
Technically, progress to windward can be made while close reaching, planing.

Optimum VMG is usually achieved by not planing, though might in rare conditions. For example, surfing is a type of exceeding hull speed (planing), and on rare occasions I have surfed while going to windward.

There is another argument, the moment that a Laser / ILCA exceeds it's hull speed of 5 knots, it is planing. In fresh conditions, 5 knots can be exceeded by top sailors sailing upwind in a Laser.

For all these reasons, I'm going say yes it is possible, though it is rare.

 
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Gouvernail

Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
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Austin Texas
The answer is yes:

**sailing a class legal Laser

I have accomplished it in VERY FLAT water in about 15/18 mph of wind. 
there is a place on our lake where gusts wrap around a hundred foot high almost vertical hill. I weighed about 13 stone at the time. The trick was to reach off, get on plane snd come up to close hauled. The way Bes were no more than 10cm
I had to hike on one Leg with the other in my lap my hands held over my head .I eas in my thirties.  I was good for about twenty seconds of this. 
there were three of us trying. The 6’3” 175 pound guy made it happen once.. I did it three times. The other guy was 200 lbs but couldn’t hike hard enough. 
 

repeat: you need perfect geography to pull it off.

***non Laser  legal 

Nick and Ed Monske probably each weighed about 130lbs

They were about 20 at the time. They also had a Tornado so they had trapeze gear.

Ed sewed three webbing loops on the luff sleeve of an old sail. He put the loops about a foot above the mast joint. He gave a lot of thought to the “forestay” loop preventing mast bend and the trapeze loops on the side encouraging bend. He ended up with loops at multiple locations.

anyway, when there was just enough wind for a 130 pound guy to hang flat out on a trapeze the boat planed from close reach to closehauled.... 

but

if the wind picked up and waves grew, the boat wouldn’t plane to weather. 

They quit fooling with the trapeze because it wasn’t as fun as racing in the  fleet. 
 

The Monske boys were pretty good sailors. On one  light air Wednesday in 1985 they alternated who did RC and who used the Laser and won all nine races. 

 

The Q

Super Anarchist
Define to windward, 1 degree above 90 degrees to the wind is to windward, that is certainly achievable. Hard on the wind highly unlikely ..

30 years ago somewhat younger and fitter than now, in  20 - 25mph winds and nearly flat water,  I occasionally held a plane up  to half way between 90degrees and hard on the wind. There was definitely a sweet spot for those conditions. It was possible to overtake some boats that were hard on the wind. You can't sail through 'em, sail round 'em.

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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Eastern NC
Define to windward, 1 degree above 90 degrees to the wind is to windward, that is certainly achievable. Hard on the wind highly unlikely ..

30 years ago somewhat younger and fitter than now, in  20 - 25mph winds and nearly flat water,  I occasionally held a plane up  to half way between 90degrees and hard on the wind. There was definitely a sweet spot for those conditions. It was possible to overtake some boats that were hard on the wind. You can't sail through 'em, sail round 'em.
Bingo, I think this hits on the real key... higher VMG by bearing away, and focusing on that within a fairly broad definition of "planing."

I've never done it in a Laser, but it seems likely with a tall sailor to be able to plane to windward-ish... may be very difficult to hit the sweet spot of higher VMG than a boat with the sailor hiking just as hard and pointing up in the traditional 45 dgree ish range. I' ve sailed a couple of dinghies that you didn't need to crack off very much and you could plane, and could break past other close-hauled boats doing so. The 470 is one, the Johnson 18 is another. I've never raced a VX-1 but it seems very likely too. Flat water plays a big part of this equation.

FB- Doug

 

Bill5

Right now
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Western Canada
With a broad definition of upwind and a broad definition of planing, a Laser can plane upwind in laboratory conditions - broadly speaking. I have never personally experienced planing in a Laser  while sailing close-hauled. 

 

tillerman

Super Anarchist
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Rhode Island
I suppose the Aero should probably be able to plane to windward also, with more ease since its lighter and faster?
It has been claimed that the Aero planes to windward but I have never experienced anything close to what I would call planing when hard on the wind.

But if you mean will an Aero plane at angles between 45 and 90 degrees to the wind, then of course it does that.

My impression is the the Aero responds better than the Laser to cracking off a few degrees from hard on the wind. And it's also true that the Aero will start planing at somewhat lower wind speeds than the Laser.

And, of course, the Aero, mainly because of its lower weight, will accelerate faster than Laser in a puff.

Can't beat Newton. F=ma.

newton.jpg

 

 
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Gouvernail

Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
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Austin Texas
The question was about Lasers and I answered above..

as for the AERO its upwind planing is a lot like the Fireball. 
defining planing fir my response: there is regular displacement sailing and a lifted over the water node that is significantly faster. 
 

on a Fireball, 50 years ago, we used to have. Conditions on Erie bay where Fireballs could maintain a sustained planing mode while close hauled. Generally, we lost the planing mode because we hit a wake or a weed patch.

as a racing move it was risk eith possible big rewards.

we had to bear off to get on plane. If we didn’t have enough wind to stay on plane while coming back up to close hauled we simply lost ground vs our competitors. 
 

While planing it was often necessary to bear off a bit to sustain the plane .... but if we lost it, we had also lost distance to weather. 
 

also, as the waves became flatter approaching shore it was easier to plane in less wind but the area closer to shore also had less wind . It was a fun contest 

On the AERO I have fiddled a bit with planing to weather. 
 One particularly educational afternoon was spent sailing upwind near a well sailed Ensign.  Results:

**If I sail the AERO “like a regular boat” I  point a little higher and go a little faster than the Ensign.
 

**If I foot off and  plane  and head back up without falling off the plane I can point slightly higher than the Ensign at a higher speed maybe even as fast as double speed.

**if I foot off and get on plane but cannot get back up to pointing at least as high, I lose as much or more distance than I gain by sustaining a plane.

**I cannot sail from behind and through the Ensign’s lee and pass in any condition. (In winds over about 12 I can sail through an Ensign’s Lee on a Laser . I think my AERO 9 is slower upwind in big breeze than a Laser. I know it is slower upwind than an AERO 7 in a blow) 

**powerboat wakes knock me off close hauled plane 

untested theory: 

I think a jock who could hike like hell could crack off the wind a bit in an AERO 9 and plane all around the course in a blow. 
perhaps in the 1970s I was that guy. Today I would last about three minutes trying and be too exhausted to sail normally for an hour after trying. 

 

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