Can Lasers plane to windward?

[Doug Halsey]

... higher VMG by bearing away, and focusing on that within a fairly broad definition of "planing."

That's also the definition of "pinching." Every boat can do that.

 

[Steam Flyer]

... higher VMG by bearing away, and focusing on that within a fairly broad definition of "planing."

That's also the definition of "pinching." Every boat can do that.

True

But you don't always get higher VMG by pinching... sometimes there's a tactical reason to get a boatlength upwind even you lose half a length overall... closing a lane into the windward mark for example.

With a given boat in given conditions, there's one path to the VMG... it may be pinching, it may be footing (which can include planing), it may be only a tiny increment above the conventional whitebread close-hauled.

In the Johnson 18, when upwind planing was possible, it took some quick sail adjustment and hard hiking, and the gain in VMG was dramatic enough to be able to break a leading boat's cover within a short sprint. The Jn18 was a bit more tolerant of heeling and a slight chop, but it was still a small window of opportunity.

FB- Doug

 

[fastyacht]

Do you really know that?

Like this know that? I suspect it isn't the "planing" but merely working harder.Which side you are of the optimum is of importance obviously whether in a star (orange) or a hobie 16 (blue)



btw these are fictional curves

 

[RobbieB]

For example, surfing is a type of exceeding hull speed (planing), and on rare occasions I have surfed while going to windward.

Hop on a nice boat wake, bare off a smidge, (because the apparent wind swings forward with the boat speed boost) and you'll surf that set of waves while going upwind.  To Bruce's point, it doesn't happen often but when it does it's cool!

 

[tillerman]

Hop on a nice boat wake, bare off a smidge, (because the apparent wind swings forward with the boat speed boost) and you'll surf that set of waves while going upwind.  To Bruce's point, it doesn't happen often but when it does it's cool!

Oh yeah. I remember the New England Laser Masters at Third Beach Newport in 2005, which is where a long narrow bay (know as the Sakonnet River) opens up to Rhode Island Sound.

A passing hurricane out at sea had generated some huge swells that were rolling up the bay from the south. But the wind was from the north at 20 knots plus. .Beating on starboard tack, the waves were running in roughly the same direction as we were sailing so on the upwind side of the wave you could actually catch a long ride down the front of the wave and surf your way upwind.
But surfing is not planing.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

But surfing is not planing.

You can plane without surfing, and surf without planing.

But the surfing I was talking about, was planing.

There sure are a lot of surfers who talk about their boards being either a planing board or a displacement board.

"Displacement Hulls" http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfboard-anatomy/bottom-contour/displacement-hulls

 

[fastyacht]

OFFS

 

[Bruce Hudson]

No.

OFFS.

 

[Bruce Hudson]

When is surfing planing?

Consider a surfer on a 'sinker' surfboard that normally doesn't have enough buoyancy to support the weight of a surfer. When there is enough forward motion, the surfboard skims down the face of the wave, and since the force is provided by gravity, the surfer is surfing as well as planing.

The same forces apply to any planing hull (including a Laser/ILCA) when on a wave - and when that hull exceeds its hull speed, it is planing. 

When is surfing not planing?

With a Hobie 16 (or other non planing hull) surfs down a wave, they may dramatically increase their boat speed, but they are surfing not planing.

(Nothing to do with pigs flying).

 

[Admiral Hornblower]

https://www.sailjuice.com/articles/laser-upwind-technique-slingsb 'Planing' a Laser upwind with world champ Tom Slingsby ***

hmm... haven't listened to it yet but it should be interesting

 

[fastyacht]

I guarranty nobody can ever sail a laser for upwind vmg with dynamic lift supporting more than a small percentage of the mass.

I also guaranty that nobody can sail one on upwind vmg at greater than 2 times wave speed (2 x 0.4 = Froude number 0.8

So, ffs this is silly but hey, when I was 12 I saw photos of light displacement ocean racers leapomg through waves and imagined them going 20 knots, hahaha.

We didnt havr youtube or internet cranks. He a kid can dream, right?

 

[tillerman]

https://www.sailjuice.com/articles/laser-upwind-technique-slingsb 'Planing' a Laser upwind with world champ Tom Slingsby ***

hmm... haven't listened to it yet but it should be interesting

OFFS  Talk about clickbait.

 

 

[WillyT123]

When really overpowered in the laser, best practice, if you can pull it off,  is to raise the board 1"-2", ease the main and bear off as much as you need to keep the boat flat and the tell tales happy. It's quite difficult to get right and I wouldn't say I'm good at it, but in my experience it is faster than pinching, especially if there's much chop. I think I'm probably too light to get on a plane doing this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a talented big guy in good shape (eg - olympian) could make it happen in 20-25+.

 

[Bill5]

When really overpowered in the laser, best practice, if you can pull it off,  is to raise the board 1"-2", ease the main and bear off as much as you need to keep the boat flat and the tell tales happy. It's quite difficult to get right and I wouldn't say I'm good at it, but in my experience it is faster than pinching, especially if there's much chop. I think I'm probably too light to get on a plane doing this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a talented big guy in good shape (eg - olympian) could make it happen in 20-25+.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2017/04/11/put-your-bow-down-the-hardest-technique-in-laser-sailing/

No mention of planing here.

 

[fastyacht]

Some people do not understand physics. Planing to windward in a laser. Haha. HAHA. HAHAHA!  HAHAHAHAHA!

(Heck--even a 505 doesn't *actually* plane to windward unless you get over 10 knots! )

Boats that routinely plane to windward--in the strictest sense of the term "planing" (in excess of 2 times wave speed, majority of support due to lift not hydrostatics) is very short. The Australian 18 actually does it. 14 knots on 18 feet is actually bona fide planing. Other skiffs too.  Catamarans do the same or even better against wave speed but do not lift. But who really cares about that?

I just think this whole thread is adorable. I want to hug it.

 

[CaptainAhab]

Tasars can plane upwind. That means speed above hull speed wave breaking well behind the bow. Board up. Pointing at the same upwind angle.

Lasers will not do that. Even if you get planing on a tight reach and slowing keep turning upwind. The hull is not light or great hydrodynamically. 

Lasers are a fun boat. Not a great boat design or build.

 

[Wess]

Pigs can fly and Lasers can plane upwind.  So says an expert (https://www.sailjuice.com/articles/laser-upwind-technique-slingsby).

ILCAs can not plane upwind.  They also smell like pigs and sink like stones!

 

[Steam Flyer]

Pigs can fly and Lasers can plane upwind.  So says an expert (https://www.sailjuice.com/articles/laser-upwind-technique-slingsby).

ILCAs can not plane upwind.  They also smell like pigs and sink like stones!

I thought that was J24s

FB- Doug

 

[Wess]

I thought that was J24s

FB- Doug

I thought it was the J22 that also sunk like a stone.  J24s too?  Do both leave bruises after hiking or is that just a J22 thing?

 

[Steam Flyer]

I thought it was the J22 that also sunk like a stone.  J24s too?  Do both leave bruises after hiking or is that just a J22 thing?

Yes, yes, Thistles, and no

FB- Doug