Canoe stern - why?

[Whinging Pom]

Thomas Harrison-Butler designed perfectly balanced boats with transom sterns.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/http://harrisonbutlerassociation.com/HBAJArchive/No23Summer1986.pdf

Scroll down for the hull lines. He was an amateur designer, his day job was an eye surgeon at Moorfields Hospital.

 

[TheDragon]

My 6th boat is a Bob Perry designed Tayana 37. Before I owned boats with wide stern and IOR racers. The canoe stern/long keel combination is the best choice to cross oceans if you are not in a hurry, if you sail singlehanded or with a small crew. The gentle movements and groove keeping qualities are at the expense of aft cabins and reversing, but who wants more space if he is alone onboard, what he needs is the ability to cook meals in 20 feet waves (I've done that). And who needs reversing if he doesn't like marinas. And about speed: a stable platform allows you to carry much more sail and you tend to be faster during a crossing.

I don't have your diverse boat experience, but this summarizes nicely my feelings about my PSC34 crossing the Pacific last year solo with little previous ocean-sailing experience. I crossed almost 4000 miles in 35 days (37 port to port but the last two days were spent doing sail-bys of the Marquesas on a weekend before stopping at Nuku Hiva). That's decent speed for that boat, and I was not in a hurry, indeed quite sad that it was over.

 

[Go Left]

not really a contemporary counterpart is it?

Seems like we've been talking about why designers would draw a double-ender these days as much as reminiscing about canoe-stern designs from Herreshoff, et al. Ergo, pics of a contemporary hull form that is neither a wide-assed triangle or a teardrop going backwards seems relevant..

It also seems like there's a useful distinction to make between the fat-assed, tow-the-ocean, rounded-stern designs like the Calkins 50 and slender, elegant forms of the canoe-bodied forms like the Francis Lee or the 210 that have near catamaran-like slenderness ratios and wave-making. \

These two grossly approaches should not be lumped into one category of "boats that don't have transoms".

As for that pintailed design (the Seranade?), I just can't make sense of that approach at all.

 

[floater]

The Calkins 50 is a relatively light, fin keeled boat.

 

[Tanton Y_M]

Simply because I like double enders.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

Simply because I like double enders.

View attachment 578891

View attachment 578892

View attachment 578894

Very nice!

 

[mckenzie.keith]

And who needs reversing if he doesn't like marinas. And about speed: a stable platform allows you to carry much more sail and you tend to be faster during a crossing.

One nice thing about full keel boats with the prop right in front of the rudder is that you can really spin the boat in either direction with a blast of power and the rudder turned to one side.

By successively backing a little, then throttling forward with the wheel turned, you can spin around in a very tight space. You can also use this technique to get pointed in the right direction so you can back into your slip or whatever.

 

[mckenzie.keith]

Besides, fast in a sailboat is relative, as no sailboat is fast. Some are just less slow than others.

I am not sure I agree with that. Can you point me to a power boat that can beat a SC 50 from California to Hawaii? Let's leave actual ships out of it and restrict ourselves to powerboats 60 feet or less.

 

[Sidecar]

One nice thing about full keel boats with the prop right in front of the rudder is that you can really spin the boat in either direction with a blast of power and the rudder turned to one side.

By successively backing a little, then throttling forward with the wheel turned, you can spin around in a very tight space. You can also use this technique to get pointed in the right direction so you can back into your slip or whatever.

Even easier with two bows and two rudders. Using both rudders, the boat can pivot around the ama. If that isn’t tight enough, you can reverse the rudders and motor and motor out with the stern now being the bow….

 

[kiwin]

"He felt wider sterns tended to drive down the bow upwind in a seaway. Of course that was likely just a gut feeling on his part, or maybe from conversation with Ron Holland"
Gut feeling, whatever. It's dogs bollocks obvious. Look at those IMOCA or class 40's: when they heel over the bow goes down. It's why the current crop of production yachts from Beneteau, Hanse et al are no good for open ocean live aboard cruising. The unbalanced hull form gives cranky bow down handling and the big ass gets knocked around in a following sea. The two boats I have owned which had the best course keeping are both fin and spade boats with very balanced hulls: Jim Young's Fiery Cross, mentioned earlier in this thread, which I still own and have been working on today, a double ended 45 footer that will steer itself without autopilot in flat water, and my main squeeze a Dashew Sundeer 60, also a very balanced narrow boat which almost steers itself.
And yes, it's always hard to get enough volume in the canoe stern. It's THE reason they are gone. Boats got wider aft for good hydrodynamic reasons. Then someone tried to cram two double cabins, an engine and a dinghy garage into the ass along with a cockpit big enough to host the oscars and fuck hydrodynamics. Never mind the quality, feel the width. Most owners won't sail anyway, and of those that do most won't know the difference or care.

 

[bridhb]

Even easier with two bows and two rudders. Using both rudders, the boat can pivot around the ama. If that isn’t tight enough, you can reverse the rudders and motor and motor out with the stern now being the bow….

View attachment 578899

Still trying to figure out that sail on the ama. I have watched some videos but maybe not the correct one. Neat boat!

 

[Bob Perry]

I agree with Go Left. This conversation doesn't work when you throw all double enders into the same category. That is ridiculous. For instance, look at Yves-Marie's 43 canoe stern boat. That is exactly the shape I avoid. Look at Garden's OCEANUS, maybe the prettiest canoe stern ever, just did not work well. Frankie's stern shape came from a Laurie Davidson AC bow. Look at the Calkins 50, now there's a sweet stern. My point is, this group of canoe stern boats are all very different. You'd be making an error to endow then all with the same characteristics.

To the question "why canoe sterns?" The answer is simple, because some people like them. That's it. That should be good enough. I happen to like the look of a canoe stern. It has zero to do with performance. It's aesthetics. Yes, some canoe stern boats are ugly with a stern shape that looks like it's hanging, painfully off the stern. I like a canoe stern that appears to be floating kind of like a perky tit. To get that shape you have to be very sensitive to shape. Note the slight hollow in the lower part of the Valiant 40 stern section.

Of course I like double enders, when they are well designed. I think I have designed more
double enders than any other living designer. If you know a designer with more please let me know. Designing double enders has afforded me a comfortable life style and a job I have looked forward to 96.00443% of the time. I live well and indulge my hobby and my dogs. Can't shit on the boats that made it all possible. Ironically I have far more transom stern designs than double enders. People forget that.

I think the plusses and minuses of canoe stern boats has been well covered here. Most seem to understand that subject. Others don't have a clue. Can't help that. The appreciation of canoe sterns is a subjective thing. George Day, publisher of BLUE WATER SAILING, upon finishing his circumnavigation wrote, "There are more Tayana 37's cruising the world than any other design." That makes me feel really good. I am constantly getting posts on my FB fan club page from TY 37 owners from all over the world. They built 600 Tayana 37's. I was 26 when I drew those lines. Of course I feel good about that boat. I like all my children.

 

[accnick]

I agree with Go Left. This conversation doesn't work when you throw all double enders into the same category. That is ridiculous. For instance, look at Yves-Marie's 43 canoe stern boat. That is exactly the shape I avoid. Look at Garden's OCEANUS, maybe the prettiest canoe stern ever, just did not work well. Frankie's stern shape came from a Laurie Davidson AC bow. Look at the Calkins 50, now there's a sweet stern. My point is, this group of canoe stern boats are all very different. You'd be making an error to endow then all with the same characteristics.

To the question "why canoe sterns?" The answer is simple, because some people like them. That's it. That should be good enough. I happen to like the look of a canoe stern. It has zero to do with performance. It's aesthetics. Yes, some canoe stern boats are ugly with a stern shape that looks like it's hanging, painfully off the stern. I like a canoe stern that appears to be floating kind of like a perky tit. To get that shape you have to be very sensitive to shape. Note the slight hollow in the lower part of the Valiant 40 stern section.

Of course I like double enders, when they are well designed. Designing double enders has afforded me a comfortable life style and a job I have looked forward to 96.00443% of the time. I live well and indulge my hobby and my dogs. Can't shit on the boats that made it all possible. Ironically I have far more transom stern designs than double enders. People forget that.

I think the plusses and minuses of canoe stern boats has been well covered here. Most seem to understand that subject. Others don't have a clue. Can't help that. The appreciation of canoe sterns is a subjective thing. George Day, publisher of BLUE WATER SAILING, upon finishing his circumnavigation wrote, "There are more Tayana 37's cruising the world than any other design." That makes me feel really good. I am constantly getting posts on my FB fan club page from TY 37 owners from all over the world. They built 600 Tayana 37's. I was 26 when I drew those lines. Of course I feel good about that boat. I like all my children. View attachment 578944 View attachment 578945 View attachment 578946 View attachment 578948

I can verify that when we were circumnavigating between 1997 and 2002, we saw more Tayana 37s out there than any other single design.

Handsome is as handsome does.

 

[Bob Perry]

It's a look a lot of people like.

 

['Bacco]

I I like a canoe stern that appears to be floating kind of like a perky tit.

This is the content I come here for.

 

[eliboat]

"He felt wider sterns tended to drive down the bow upwind in a seaway. Of course that was likely just a gut feeling on his part, or maybe from conversation with Ron Holland"
Gut feeling, whatever. It's dogs bollocks obvious. Look at those IMOCA or class 40's: when they heel over the bow goes down. It's why the current crop of production yachts from Beneteau, Hanse et al are no good for open ocean live aboard cruising. The unbalanced hull form gives cranky bow down handling and the big ass gets knocked around in a following sea. The two boats I have owned which had the best course keeping are both fin and spade boats with very balanced hulls: Jim Young's Fiery Cross, mentioned earlier in this thread, which I still own and have been working on today, a double ended 45 footer that will steer itself without autopilot in flat water, and my main squeeze a Dashew Sundeer 60, also a very balanced narrow boat which almost steers itself.
And yes, it's always hard to get enough volume in the canoe stern. It's THE reason they are gone. Boats got wider aft for good hydrodynamic reasons. Then someone tried to cram two double cabins, an engine and a dinghy garage into the ass along with a cockpit big enough to host the oscars and fuck hydrodynamics. Never mind the quality, feel the width. Most owners won't sail anyway, and of those that do most won't know the difference or care.

Devil is in the details. Just because a boat has a wide transom doesn’t mean that the bow is going to dive when heeled. It certainly can on a design that doesn’t consider the immersed volume of the ass end carefully. Very fast boats with wide transoms usually have pretty balanced underwater areas they are designed so that the boat sails best at a particular heel angle. I would also argue that the Imoca boats aren’t really nose diving as they’re heeling, rather outrunning waves and slamming into them. There’s a big difference.

 

[floater]

This is the content I come here for.

may not be pretty - but don't you wanna just reach up and slap that ass? (h/t @Sail4beer)

 

[Bob Perry]

I prefer this. More shape.

 

[Crash]

I am not sure I agree with that. Can you point me to a power boat that can beat a SC 50 from California to Hawaii? Let's leave actual ships out of it and restrict ourselves to powerboats 60 feet or less.

Good question, but there's this from a Transatlantic Record...

The Fastest Atlantic Crossing Ever Defends Its 30 Year Old Record

In August 1992, the Destriero monohull sailed from New York to the British Isles of Scilly in 58 hours, 34 minutes and 50 seconds. Since then, nobody has done better

www.elledecor.com

 

[floater]

I prefer this. More shape. View attachment 578954

I can see where this is going..