Carbon parts - how to?

luminary

Anarchist
714
54
Hi,

I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l

 

Dick Ishuge

Member
370
0
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
its another revolution :lol: :lol:

 

luminary

Anarchist
714
54
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
its another revolution :lol: :lol:
whats the simley for tongue in cheek.

If I ever get around to finishing the boat I will post pictures of it sailing (assuming that it doesnt sink, fall apart, and actually functions as expected). It is the antithesis of Dougie's revolution.

Thought I'd get a reaction from the wags on here with that adjective. :)

 

luminary

Anarchist
714
54
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
I should add, what I am looking for is simple advice on constructing a shape like a skateboard deck. I currently plan to shape from a block of foam and wrap with cloth and resin. What I dont know is how to get the sexy gloss finish with the carbon cloth nicely laid on the board. This is particularly the case if the shape being created has any concavities.

In the past the best solution I have found is to wrap GladWrap around the piece then put in a 'sponge vice'. All very amateur I'm afraid.

there must be a better way.

 

BalticBandit

Super Anarchist
11,114
1
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
I should add, what I am looking for is simple advice on constructing a shape like a skateboard deck. I currently plan to shape from a block of foam and wrap with cloth and resin. What I dont know is how to get the sexy gloss finish with the carbon cloth nicely laid on the board. This is particularly the case if the shape being created has any concavities.

In the past the best solution I have found is to wrap GladWrap around the piece then put in a 'sponge vice'. All very amateur I'm afraid.

there must be a better way.
Peel Ply. http://www.peelply.com/

Check out Epoxyworks magazine http://www.epoxyworks.com/ Its back issues have lots of good information on this.

You probably want to check out information on Vacuum Bagging as well as using Heat Shrink Tape.

The way you use the latter is that you layup what you want, then cover it in peelply, then wrap it in heat shrink tape and hit the whole thing with a hot air gun (hair dryer). This causes the tape to shrink applying compressive force to squeeze out excess resin and making the surface glossy.

Have fun - Building stuff can be lots of fun.

 

luminary

Anarchist
714
54
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
I should add, what I am looking for is simple advice on constructing a shape like a skateboard deck. I currently plan to shape from a block of foam and wrap with cloth and resin. What I dont know is how to get the sexy gloss finish with the carbon cloth nicely laid on the board. This is particularly the case if the shape being created has any concavities.

In the past the best solution I have found is to wrap GladWrap around the piece then put in a 'sponge vice'. All very amateur I'm afraid.

there must be a better way.
Peel Ply. http://www.peelply.com/

Check out Epoxyworks magazine http://www.epoxyworks.com/ Its back issues have lots of good information on this.

You probably want to check out information on Vacuum Bagging as well as using Heat Shrink Tape.

The way you use the latter is that you layup what you want, then cover it in peelply, then wrap it in heat shrink tape and hit the whole thing with a hot air gun (hair dryer). This causes the tape to shrink applying compressive force to squeeze out excess resin and making the surface glossy.

Have fun - Building stuff can be lots of fun.
thanks BB.

Vacuum bagging is probably what I need to get to grips with.

Still, that seems to work with 'simple' shapes where the compound radius of curvature is large and the various materials are able to deform without creasing. What about tight, compound corners?

I am also thinking of one-off pieces. The literature refers to molds - are all crazy carbon do-dads that you see around boats, produced from molds? Molds for pieces that are not simple shapes get complicated, plus they take a bunch of work to produce. If this is the only way - then fine, but are there alternatives?

thx

l

 

teknologika

Anarchist
748
1
I am also thinking of one-off pieces. The literature refers to molds - are all crazy carbon do-dads that you see around boats, produced from molds? Molds for pieces that are not simple shapes get complicated, plus they take a bunch of work to produce. If this is the only way - then fine, but are there alternatives?
thx

l
Good moulds are the key to good parts. Most, if not all the time is spend in the tooling for parts. For simple one off parts, you can "flat laminate", i.e. use a flat surface as your mould and then assemble and tag joins, (like if you were making something out of cardboard and sticky tape), but it won't be pretty.

The typical process is to make a male "plug" of what you want to make, then make a mould of that, and then make your part(s).

If you have access to CAD and CAM, then you can (sometimes) skip step 1 and go straight to step 2.

A perfect clear finish is HARD to get. You need really high quality moulds, cloth and resin as you always have some level of pourosity in the weave that needs to be cleaned up.

 

bdal

Member
426
0
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
most parts can be made without a formal mold. Mylar with a glossy finish is part of the trick and sheet aluminum and various sizes of tubing are also helpful. Foam cores with the saddles they were cut from are also helpful.

These are some parts that I commonly make without bagging in my garage.

Bram Paolo__s_parts_001.jpg

 

luminary

Anarchist
714
54
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
most parts can be made without a formal mold. Mylar with a glossy finish is part of the trick and sheet aluminum and various sizes of tubing are also helpful. Foam cores with the saddles they were cut from are also helpful.

These are some parts that I commonly make without bagging in my garage.

Bram View attachment 107311
AHH HA!

this is what I am interested in. Do you have anything that describes the process that you use to create these pieces?

I get the mylar giving a nice surface finish and starting with stock shapes. How do you avoid the bagging/mold when you need to ensure that everything bonds properly?

Cheers

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
19
SLC, UT
You can put things in a vice and squeeze them together. My brother made a skateboard in a middle school shop class. They had a metal mold in the shape of the deck and would put a mold release on it, then some gelcoat, and finish by wetting out cloth on a table, laying it on the mold then placing the another part of the mold over the whole and clamping it down. After the full cure, pull it all apart and then trim to the finished shape. Since you want the deck to be rough, you don't need to use mylar or any other fancy things to keep it glossy. In fact, the surface you have after using the peel ply, or some rip stop remnants from the local craft shop, will give a better surface to bond other things to.

The way a lot of the Swifties have built their foils is by getting a blank cut out of foam using a hot wire. You want to save the outside of the foam and glue that to some 1/2" or better ply wood for the molding process. Then you set up all your glass/carbon cloth and cut it to close to the finished size. Leave a little extra for trim. You can always remove excess but adding where it was too small is problematic. Then cut out some plastic that will go between the wetted cloth and the outside mold. Wet out the cloth and place it on the foam core. Then put the peel-ply on the wetted clot and clamp the outsides over the part. Once cured, you peel it all apart, do some final repair/shaping then apply the desired finish.

You can use acetone to eat some of the foam out then fill the void with bog to cap off the ends. Bram does have a much better step by step gide to the pricess included with pictures.

As many have already said, the quality of the part depends more on the quality of the mold and building the mold can often be much more work than making the part. Short cuts are not wise. It is usually best to follow solid advice, take your time and do it once than skipp over things and have to keep fixing things or starting over because it didn't work.

 

bdal

Member
426
0
Hi,
I am an amateur boat builder (plywood and 2x1 stage) and would like some advice/pointers on how to create simple -> complex carbon parts. To start with I am thinking it would be good to help my son make a deck for his skateboard so that I can experiment with techniques. I will then use this experience to make the parts necessary for the REVOLUTIONARY dinghy I have under construction.

If you have any links or advice/tips on this, I'd appreciate the info.

Cheers

l
most parts can be made without a formal mold. Mylar with a glossy finish is part of the trick and sheet aluminum and various sizes of tubing are also helpful. Foam cores with the saddles they were cut from are also helpful.

These are some parts that I commonly make without bagging in my garage.

Bram View attachment 107311
AHH HA!

this is what I am interested in. Do you have anything that describes the process that you use to create these pieces?

I get the mylar giving a nice surface finish and starting with stock shapes. How do you avoid the bagging/mold when you need to ensure that everything bonds properly?

Cheers
If you go to http://www.swiftsolo.org/constructioninfor...dfsdetails.html you'll find complete instructions on how to make many of these parts from carbon. It includes PDFs on rudder, centerboards, rudder cassettes, spreaders, launcher throats, lever vang assemblies, etc. The mast bases, mast steps, and forestay fittings/pole launcher are not covered, however, If you need that info, I can post some photos.

Bram

 

luminary

Anarchist
714
54
If you go to http://www.swiftsolo.org/constructioninfor...dfsdetails.html you'll find complete instructions on how to make many of these parts from carbon. It includes PDFs on rudder, centerboards, rudder cassettes, spreaders, launcher throats, lever vang assemblies, etc. The mast bases, mast steps, and forestay fittings/pole launcher are not covered, however, If you need that info, I can post some photos.
Bram
Thanks for the link. I'll snoop through there, see what I can find. I think the answer to what I was asking is also largely what TFugu mentioned - there is no simple way, best to do it properly.

Thanks all.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
19
SLC, UT
If you go to http://www.swiftsolo.org/constructioninfor...dfsdetails.html you'll find complete instructions on how to make many of these parts from carbon. It includes PDFs on rudder, centerboards, rudder cassettes, spreaders, launcher throats, lever vang assemblies, etc. The mast bases, mast steps, and forestay fittings/pole launcher are not covered, however, If you need that info, I can post some photos.
Bram
Thanks for the link. I'll snoop through there, see what I can find. I think the answer to what I was asking is also largely what TFugu mentioned - there is no simple way, best to do it properly.

Thanks all.
Bram has some great information there. I am amazed that in today's climate, he is so willing to to share all of his experience and knowlege so freely. He has created some very nice parts and I've seen a lot of guys with little experience build some high quality foils using his technique.

Just like building the boat, the preparation of the molds or bases used to create the final product has a huge impact on the outcome. The nice thing Bram has done is giving everyone what ended up working. I've often told him that he also needs to tell people the "Don't try this, it didn't work." part as well. You see the finished product of all of his years of making things that didn't work. If you're thinking of taking a short cut, you might do well to PM him and find out if he's already tried it. Chances are he has and it didn't work for one reason or another.

 

andyxs

Member
400
0
thats exelent info for sure. i have been following quite closley as being a student and with summer coming up i was looking for some things to try my hand at as well. thanks bdal!

 

bdal

Member
426
0
Bram

I would like to see those photos if you don't mind sharing. Thanks

Russell,

A lot of this stuff can be seen on http://www.swiftsolo.org/buyplanssailsparts.html near the bottom of the page

Here are some photos of the forestay fitting installed and I'll try to dig out the drawing with the layup schedule. Many of thes parts are made in long lengths and chopped to size. No point in making one part when 4 parts is just as easy and less wasteful. The little block laying aft of the forestay is the jib downhaul.

forestay_fitting_best.jpg DSC01095.JPG

 
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