Carbon Rigging...

[Flyer32445]

funny there is a stretch number in the Navtec catalog, but what do they know

 

[Christian]

The EC6 will save you that much weight sometimes a touch less, about 5%, as plugs have to be built and put into the spreaders for retrofits. I've been around a good chunk of the rigging and this has been the case. You will see a lot less pitching as well when in seaway which is another big plus on top of the ease of tuning. As for the Hall rigging I have heard a lot about it but no first hand experience. One thing to remember is that every boat except the Russians had EC6 continuous rigging so you know it has been well tested. As for the cats there are a few boats out there with it including a Gunboat. If you have any more specific questions pm me and I'll see if I can answer them for you.

The plugs that you are talking about for the spreader tips are not heavier than the tip cups they are replacing though....

Have also heard a lot about the Hall version and am curious to hear some first hand experience with it and see it up close and personal. One thing I am pretty curious about is the stiffness of the Hall version for coiling it (for trailering) - the EC6 works great for this

Christian, you can coil the SCR as tightly as rod where it is recommended the coil diameter is at least 200 times the rod diameter and larger is always preferred.

Thanks.

Mark

For trailerable boats that may be an issue (possible to deal with but a PITA) as that means some pretty big coils. The EC6 coils a fair bit easier (smaller coils). Not saying the Hall version is not a good product (know too little about it yet to comment - the idea is sexy) just that the EC6 IS EASIER FOR SOME BOATS

True Christian, not every product is going to be perfect for every application. You have the benefit of coiling up your stays and throwing them down the hatch where a -10 equivalent SCR stay will be a 4' coil in the cockpit or taped to the rig for transport. It's just the nature of the beast. You will not see me talking down EC6, just making comparisons.

Production is speeding up for sure and there will be a lot more first-hand experience soon enough, though, quite a lot is going overseas. I would have to say it is ramping up quicker than when I worked with Alex and then Southern during the initial EC6 days, probably because carbon rigging is not new to the market now.

Happy Holidays.

Mark

Maybe I could try it out for a new forestay - seems like it would be ideal for (soft)hanked on jibs. I am looking to change the forestay adjustment setup anyway so that would be a good time for changing out the forestay - right now I am using a PBO forestay and with the double cover it is too big a diameter.

What diameter would I be looking at for a working load of 5,000 lb with at least a SF of 4? Length will be about 10.7 meters depending on the adjustment setup. Could you get me an idea of price range obviously will depend on the terminations - you can PM me the $$ number if you are uncomfortable putting it on SA.

 

[Vincent DePillis]

[

"Maybe I could try it out for a new forestay - seems like it would be ideal for (soft)hanked on jibs."

I had this same thought, and called. Pricing is nose bleed. 4x rod is what sticks in my mind. Dux for me.

 

[markvannote]

Christian,

If you PM me your details I will get your info to the man who does the quoting. One question, though. Are you still running the furling headsail with the double luff rope or are you back to a fixed stay with multiple jibs?

Thanks.

Mark

 

[sloansailing]

Since the Hall product is discontinuous is the weight savings as much as with the Southern product? With Southern the tip cups are eliminated, whereas with the Hall the tip cups remain? Just wondering...

 

[evsjo]

Since the Hall product is discontinuous is the weight savings as much as with the Southern product? With Southern the tip cups are eliminated, whereas with the Hall the tip cups remain? Just wondering...

ec6+ should be lighter, big, plus the decreased windage

but what is the weight, strength, windage difference between smaller diameter and possibly less strength scr compared to continuous, but larger diameter ec6+?

 

[Christian]

Since the Hall product is discontinuous is the weight savings as much as with the Southern product? With Southern the tip cups are eliminated, whereas with the Hall the tip cups remain? Just wondering...

ec6+ should be lighter, big, plus the decreased windage

but what is the weight, strength, windage difference between smaller diameter and possibly less strength scr compared to continuous, but larger diameter ec6+?

I would venture a guess that there is no (material) difference between the teo in terms of weight, stretch and breaking strength as a certain amount of carbon (+ resin) will yield a certain weight, stretch and breaking strength. The difference between the two is that the Hall version is one solid rod and the EC6 is a bundle of smaller diameter "rods". Obviously this will make the EC6 slightly bigger in overall diameter and have a rough surface compared to the Hall version. Maybe Mark can give us the typical difference in diameter and wind resistance for a given strength???

 

[doghouse]

One thing to consider is that Hall offers a low windage version, where the rigging is shaped like a blade.

 

[evsjo]

One thing to consider is that Hall offers a low windage version, where the rigging is shaped like a blade.

but that will only work if you are going straight upwind. any time you aren't the airfoil section has a bigger cross-section than a round bundle.

 

[doghouse]

One thing to consider is that Hall offers a low windage version, where the rigging is shaped like a blade.

but that will only work if you are going straight upwind. any time you aren't the airfoil section has a bigger cross-section than a round bundle.

No, that isn't how it works. It's for drag reduction, ie. in the direction you are travelling.

 

[kwelch]

Okay all - to summarize here is what I have learned:

1 - switching to carbon rigging should be a significant upgrade - less weight & drag

2 - Both Southern & Hall have competing products, with EC6 being a proven product and the Hall product gaining ground

What I haven't heard is how much (say in relative terms) it should be worth from a drag reduction & weight savings perspective - I seem to remember somewhere someone saying every pound of weight reduction in the rig is equal to 7-9 pounds more weight in the keel or 2-3 pounds more weight on the rail?

When I calculate the static righting moments I don't get anything this significant... Help!

 

[tgermani]

Some vague questions on Carbon rigging, because I know very little about it and have just bought a new boat with an aging hall spars rig. I have stripped all the rigging from it and am in the process of giving it a complete overhaul.

If I were to replace the current rod rigging, is there sizing for the carbon rigging? And if so does it correspond to the current size of the rod rigging on the spar?

Terminals - would this change require entirely new terminals on the spreader tips and in mast sockets and inboard ends on the spreader tangs?

Pricing - is there any sort of rough number quote by the foot for a carbon rigging conversion.

Cheers,

T

 

[Christian]

Some vague questions on Carbon rigging, because I know very little about it and have just bought a new boat with an aging hall spars rig. I have stripped all the rigging from it and am in the process of giving it a complete overhaul. If I were to replace the current rod rigging, is there sizing for the carbon rigging? And if so does it correspond to the current size of the rod rigging on the spar?

Terminals - would this change require entirely new terminals on the spreader tips and in mast sockets and inboard ends on the spreader tangs?

Pricing - is there any sort of rough number quote by the foot for a carbon rigging conversion.

Cheers,

T

You need to get a customized quote for the carbon rigging. Hall can do discontinued rigging and (I assume) reuse the tip cups for the spreader ends. Southern can do continious or discontinous - if you go discontinious you will need to have your spreader tips modified (could be as simple as inserts to replace the tip cups).

There are a variety of terminal options for both Hall and Southern - you will have to discuss the details with them.

Carbon rigging is not a matter of price/foot. It is going to be 2-4 times the price of rod (my guesstimate)

 

[TheTwister]

One thing to consider is that Hall offers a low windage version, where the rigging is shaped like a blade.

but that will only work if you are going straight upwind. any time you aren't the airfoil section has a bigger cross-section than a round bundle.

No, that isn't how it works. It's for drag reduction, ie. in the direction you are travelling.

Drag due to the wind would act in the direction of the apparent wind, no?

 

[doghouse]

One thing to consider is that Hall offers a low windage version, where the rigging is shaped like a blade.

but that will only work if you are going straight upwind. any time you aren't the airfoil section has a bigger cross-section than a round bundle.

No, that isn't how it works. It's for drag reduction, ie. in the direction you are travelling.

Drag due to the wind would act in the direction of the apparent wind, no?

Yes and no. The component in the direction of travel is reduced by the most amount by aligning the blade shape along the boats fore and aft axis. It's reducing the drag force opposite of your forward motion. It doesn't reducing heeling moment due to windage though.

 

[blackangus]

Some vague questions on Carbon rigging, because I know very little about it and have just bought a new boat with an aging hall spars rig. I have stripped all the rigging from it and am in the process of giving it a complete overhaul. If I were to replace the current rod rigging, is there sizing for the carbon rigging? And if so does it correspond to the current size of the rod rigging on the spar?

Terminals - would this change require entirely new terminals on the spreader tips and in mast sockets and inboard ends on the spreader tangs?

Pricing - is there any sort of rough number quote by the foot for a carbon rigging conversion.

Cheers,

T

Someone better check their piggy bank before looking at this stuff !!

A.

 

[FlyingCircus]

Have the multi's started using this yet? any US suppliers? Cost vs rod or PBO?

Some have, but wing mast rigging is a different kettle of fish- mast tuning is not the same issue, depending on the setup. Most of us little guys are using Dynex Dux, which is dyneema.

Hey Tucky, are you using Dynex for your Diamonds or just the standing rigging? The Carbon stuff sound interesting at least from the longevity standpoint

Cheers

 

[tgermani]

Some vague questions on Carbon rigging, because I know very little about it and have just bought a new boat with an aging hall spars rig. I have stripped all the rigging from it and am in the process of giving it a complete overhaul. If I were to replace the current rod rigging, is there sizing for the carbon rigging? And if so does it correspond to the current size of the rod rigging on the spar?

Terminals - would this change require entirely new terminals on the spreader tips and in mast sockets and inboard ends on the spreader tangs?

Pricing - is there any sort of rough number quote by the foot for a carbon rigging conversion.

Cheers,

T

Someone better check their piggy bank before looking at this stuff !!

A.

Found some broken gear when we started stripping it right down. Even a split spreader.

It sounds like a decent investment if I have to replace rigging anyhow...

T

 

[blackangus]

Some vague questions on Carbon rigging, because I know very little about it and have just bought a new boat with an aging hall spars rig. I have stripped all the rigging from it and am in the process of giving it a complete overhaul. If I were to replace the current rod rigging, is there sizing for the carbon rigging? And if so does it correspond to the current size of the rod rigging on the spar?

Terminals - would this change require entirely new terminals on the spreader tips and in mast sockets and inboard ends on the spreader tangs?

Pricing - is there any sort of rough number quote by the foot for a carbon rigging conversion.

Cheers,

T

Someone better check their piggy bank before looking at this stuff !!

A.

Found some broken gear when we started stripping it right down. Even a split spreader.

It sounds like a decent investment if I have to replace rigging anyhow...

T

Gottcha - my comment was out of line anyway. Let me know if you need help.

A.

 

[markvannote]

Some vague questions on Carbon rigging, because I know very little about it and have just bought a new boat with an aging hall spars rig. I have stripped all the rigging from it and am in the process of giving it a complete overhaul. If I were to replace the current rod rigging, is there sizing for the carbon rigging? And if so does it correspond to the current size of the rod rigging on the spar?

Terminals - would this change require entirely new terminals on the spreader tips and in mast sockets and inboard ends on the spreader tangs?

Pricing - is there any sort of rough number quote by the foot for a carbon rigging conversion.

Cheers,

T

Someone better check their piggy bank before looking at this stuff !!

A.

Found some broken gear when we started stripping it right down. Even a split spreader.

It sounds like a decent investment if I have to replace rigging anyhow...

T

Sounds like you have quite a lot of work to do to get things back in order. What type of boat and how old? Feel free to contact our office regarding the spreader and anything else that comes up, including your rigging. We often send out replacement spreaders for old rigs and all of that.

Thanks.

Mark