Cats VS Skiffs

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
I've seen quite a few posts where this whole skiff VS cat thing turns into such a shit fight. What the hell is up with that? Both boats are cool and both boats are fast. Cats are probably faster as a group. I would love to have a T and I would love to have an 18. I personally have a single-handed skiff because 1. I could build one, 2. I can put it on my car, and 3 I like monos just a bit more. If I had the room for one, the money, and a steady crew, I would love to have a T especially now they have a kite. I don't so there you are.

Why can't we just admit that if it has a sail or kite, it works? It does make for some good reading but I don't think it does anything for either group. It just makes us all look like a bunch of shitheads to the rest of the community. Now is that realy good for business?

 

SCARECROW

Super Anarchist
5,998
686
Melbourne, Aus
As one of the people in half the skiff cat arguments. I'd have to say I do it for the following reasons.

1. Because its fun.

2. Because a lot of people don't think to try a cat based upon the fact they don't like hobie 14s and 16s and I'd like more people to race against.

3. Because while I design all sorts of boats, I prefer drawing cats and would like more customers for them.

5. Because cats are faster than monohulls so its an argument I can't loose.

6. What Happened to 4.

4. Oh there it is.

 
I sold my nacra 5.2 and bought the 29er bcause of the safety of sailing solo.

If you become seperated from you boat a cat can ghost sail with out capsizing. This is not so with a skiff. They will turtle at the dock.

Another huge difference I have learned is speed is relative. I have owned a number of different sport boats, dinks and windsurfers. I have discovered that it is not the abolute speed that is fun but teetering on the performance edge of a boat that is a blast.

I sat on the bottom of my Viper 640 for over an hour drifting out to sea while my cousin and I tried with all of might to get the bulb off center to right the boat. It was not until the waves cracked the deck and let enough water in that we were able to right the boat and limp home. Not a fun way to spend a cold October evening.

That night I decided that I needed to go back to my dinghy roots and get a boat that a single person can give it hell in safely. Thus, I own a 29er and it has fit the bill perfectly.

Yes, cats are fast but when you are at 20 knots you hardly know it. Get a skiff over 20 and you are hangin' on to the edge and that is FUN.

 
Yes, cats are fast but when you are at 20 knots you hardly know it. Get a skiff over 20 and you are hangin' on to the edge and that is FUN.
Get a F18 or T honking away in 30 knots with big waves, everyone down the back of the bus (crew's head back past the trailing edge of the rudder, with the kite sheet trying to rip your arms off and throw you over to leward) and the nose only an inch from having a good long talk with King Neptune and the crew having a short conversation with the forestay and bowsprit... mate, that is when you know you are going fast. Forget trying to crack open a can of whoopass, you simply don't have the time!! In that kind of situation, you forget to take a look at the shore to get some idea of exactly how quick you are going and you simply live in the moment and try like hell not to get yourself killed! Sure, the 5.2 being the big, heavy old brute it used to be it simply didn't tell ya that you were going quick (I used to have one and it was called 'battleship' for a good reason)... but I've also done the skiff thing, and now I'm a crew on a F18.

Since when was a 29er a safe thing to sail solo??!?! It might be doable in under 15 knots, but anything below or above that it's a silly idea. The 29er when it's not moving is almost as tippy as my moth is when it is moving, and downwind you can't manage the main off the boom and the kite sheet and the tillers at the same time. I'd hate to even consider what you'd do to hoist or drop the kite. So, really the 5.2 would have been the quicker and safer (and FAR cheaper) option to singlehand. Maybe even throwing a kite on the 5.2 would have made you make a more informed decision on that front!

Fugu, we're anarchists. The idea is not to look good to the rest of the community, but to scream out individuality. We live on the edge of society, but at the same time we surpass societal norms to achieve incredible things. Why else would SailingAnarchy be such an entertaining place to be?!?

 

MustoSkiffUSA

Member
371
0
I've sailed 'em both, I love 'em both. I think the animosity comes because both groups love what they do and are both on the fringes of sailing, so trying to woo a lot of the same mindset of people into groups. Plus, the people sailing these things like to be the baddest asses on the water ... Comes with the territory!

My reason for leaning to the skiffs right now is that they are physically smaller and easier to throw around / maintain. Plus I find 'em more challenging. Also find 'em more fun in moderate winds. However, running an I20 on the edge of disaster in 30 knots of winds with the hull flying and the chute up rocks too ...

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
My reason for starting this thread is that I have seen this banter go beyond poking fun at one another. We used to have a very active sailing association that had Hobie fleets, open cats, open dinghy, and Lasers. The shit fight got so bad that the Hobies said screw this and took off on their own. Not all of the problem was in fighting but it sure took it's toll. In fairness, it also hurt the Lasers when most of the top Laser sailors moved into 505's and there weren't many new boats coming in.

Long story short, the dinghys don't race, I haven't seen a Nacra on the water in years, and the Hobie fleet only had two races in this state that were hosted by other clubs. I know that lives change and stuff happens but it sure doesn't make the people sitting on the fence want to join in.

The best way to extole the virtues of your craft is to grab some of the people sitting on the shore watching and take them for a spin. I know you can't push the boat to the edge with newbies on the wire, but just think what that would do for the sport. All it would take is just another hour after the races before you put the boat to bed. You don't have to go all out, just take a short fun little blast and I bet you'll find more people willing to help at the dock or beach and you might see your classes grow.

Go ahead and flame away, just keep it all in fun.

 

Liquid

NFLTG
4,611
801
Over there
Yes, cats are fast but when you are at 20 knots you hardly know it. Get a skiff over 20 and you are hangin' on to the edge and that is FUN.
The 29er when it's not moving is almost as tippy as my moth is when it is moving, and downwind you can't manage the main off the boom and the kite sheet and the tillers at the same time. I'd hate to even consider what you'd do to hoist or drop the kite.
What about the Musto SKiff, the Voodoo yet to come and the RS700 is it? All solo, trap, spin boats that require a hand for the main, kite and tiller at the same time...

T

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
Yes, cats are fast but when you are at 20 knots you hardly know it. Get a skiff over 20 and you are hangin' on to the edge and that is FUN.
The 29er when it's not moving is almost as tippy as my moth is when it is moving, and downwind you can't manage the main off the boom and the kite sheet and the tillers at the same time. I'd hate to even consider what you'd do to hoist or drop the kite.
What about the Musto SKiff, the Voodoo yet to come and the RS700 is it? All solo, trap, spin boats that require a hand for the main, kite and tiller at the same time...

T
The tiller goes behind the knee while you are hoisting or dousing the kite. I leave the main alone and have a knot in it where it should be when the kite is up. The only time I wish the knot were not there is two sail reaching in a blow. It is not as bad as you think and it is damn fun.

 
The difference is that the 29er doesn't have the Swift's oh-so-convenient one-sheet system (complete with cleats), and no cleats on the main. It would be a bastard to get the kite up and down without putting it in the piss. The Musto, RS700 both have cleats (so it's a matter of cleat the main, bare off nice and low and then pull the bastard up, and something similar to get it down) and the Voodoo is going to be interesting as it doesn't have cleats and is sheeted off the boom (29er/49er/18footer style), so the only solution would be to knot it, go low and then pray it all works. Corky, if you happen to have some shots of you singlehanding the 29er downhill in more than 10 knots of wind, I'd like to see it. Pics or it didn't happen is the rule around here!! :lol:

 
Yes, cats are fast but when you are at 20 knots you hardly know it. Get a skiff over 20 and you are hangin' on to the edge and that is FUN.
Get a F18 or T honking away in 30 knots with big waves, everyone down the back of the bus (crew's head back past the trailing edge of the rudder, with the kite sheet trying to rip your arms off and throw you over to leward) and the nose only an inch from having a good long talk with King Neptune and the crew having a short conversation with the forestay and bowsprit... mate, that is when you know you are going fast. Forget trying to crack open a can of whoopass, you simply don't have the time!! In that kind of situation, you forget to take a look at the shore to get some idea of exactly how quick you are going and you simply live in the moment and try like hell not to get yourself killed! Sure, the 5.2 being the big, heavy old brute it used to be it simply didn't tell ya that you were going quick (I used to have one and it was called 'battleship' for a good reason)... but I've also done the skiff thing, and now I'm a crew on a F18.

Since when was a 29er a safe thing to sail solo??!?! It might be doable in under 15 knots, but anything below or above that it's a silly idea. The 29er when it's not moving is almost as tippy as my moth is when it is moving, and downwind you can't manage the main off the boom and the kite sheet and the tillers at the same time. I'd hate to even consider what you'd do to hoist or drop the kite. So, really the 5.2 would have been the quicker and safer (and FAR cheaper) option to singlehand. Maybe even throwing a kite on the 5.2 would have made you make a more informed decision on that front!

Fugu, we're anarchists. The idea is not to look good to the rest of the community, but to scream out individuality. We live on the edge of society, but at the same time we surpass societal norms to achieve incredible things. Why else would SailingAnarchy be such an entertaining place to be?!?
Blah, blah, blah! Crew this King Neptune that. Put some substance in your reply. Solo-ing a skiff is all about preparation and yes I can sail my 29er with my hands off the tiller and fly the chute. There is little more that is exciting to me then sailing a skiff/dinghy with all three sails up and rocking along.

Go put a Davis Tiller Tamer and a chute on your Moth and then let’s talk. Speed stabilizes any platform on the water. Maybe you are not going fast enough in your Moth to experience this.

Sell the Moth; tell your f18 buddy that you want more control of your destiny and that you have to single hand a 29er.

Come to the enlightened side Mr. Skiff Devil... Give up your multi-hull ways!

 
The difference is that the 29er doesn't have the Swift's oh-so-convenient one-sheet system (complete with cleats), and no cleats on the main. It would be a bastard to get the kite up and down without putting it in the piss. The Musto, RS700 both have cleats (so it's a matter of cleat the main, bare off nice and low and then pull the bastard up, and something similar to get it down) and the Voodoo is going to be interesting as it doesn't have cleats and is sheeted off the boom (29er/49er/18footer style), so the only solution would be to knot it, go low and then pray it all works. Corky, if you happen to have some shots of you singlehanding the 29er downhill in more than 10 knots of wind, I'd like to see it. Pics or it didn't happen is the rule around here!! :lol:
I'm with you bro... I will have to work on the photos of that but when I get some I will send em' your way. And yes, you do have to put a cleat on the 29er to pull it off solo. The 29er site talks about putting a knot in the mainsheet but that doesn't really cut it for going fast at different angles.

 
The difference is that the 29er doesn't have the Swift's oh-so-convenient one-sheet system (complete with cleats), and no cleats on the main. It would be a bastard to get the kite up and down without putting it in the piss. The Musto, RS700 both have cleats (so it's a matter of cleat the main, bare off nice and low and then pull the bastard up, and something similar to get it down) and the Voodoo is going to be interesting as it doesn't have cleats and is sheeted off the boom (29er/49er/18footer style), so the only solution would be to knot it, go low and then pray it all works. Corky, if you happen to have some shots of you singlehanding the 29er downhill in more than 10 knots of wind, I'd like to see it. Pics or it didn't happen is the rule around here!! :lol:
I'm with you bro... I will have to work on the photos of that but when I get some I will send em' your way. And yes, you do have to put a cleat on the 29er to pull it off solo. The 29er site talks about putting a knot in the mainsheet but that doesn't really cut it for going fast at different angles.
Sorry, being concise is not one of my high points. All I'm saying is that (with both skiff and cat experience) a fast cat is more exciting when you're on the edge of being completely out of control. I'm all for skiffs (and monos in general, as aside from 2 years as a really young tacker on a Hobie 14, I've spent my entire life sailing monos of various descriptions), but for the sheer 'oh shit woo-hoo' factor the award IMHO goes to the big cat.

Mate, when you have one of the best F18 skippers around at the moment driving the boat, with the potential to win world titles, telling him that I'd rather drive and jump ship is the last thing on my mind. I wouldn't want to s-hand a 29er anyway, personally I think that they're flawed boats in construction and design. JB may know how to design a quick hull, but a good builder he is not. The best thing he's done in the last few years is contract out the building to Divola boats and to overseas builders. I'll wait until a quick assy singlehander skiff appears in aus and then give the skiff another go (when I can afford it).

Devil

 
Does it not just come down to having fun? I love cats and skiffs. I don't think any of us sail boats

we dislike. Sailing is for fun, that's it! If you enjoy a Cape Cod Frosty, Hobie, or an 18 Footer that

should be enough. All this talk about who has a bigger c*ck is silly. It's not how big it is, it's how

much fun you have with it.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
My problem with this whole shit fight is that it is starting to get nasty and is pevading several forums. Every time someone posts something about a skiff, the cats move in and start blasting. This does nothing for the sport and I have seen it tear apart too many sailing groups. It killed small boat sailing in my area.

I know that people love thier boats but this is getting too hostile. Some guy says he wants to get a skiff and the cats move in and blast skiffs then tout the advantages of cats. As I have said before, cats are cool and fast. Just show me something under 16' that is truely cutting edge. T's are way too large for me to store. Yes I have seen then and they are mosters compared to my skiff so it is not a good option for me at the time.

I'd say that the best way to show the world how cool cats are is to start some constructive threads that make you guys look like a friendly bunch that really want to add to your ranks. From where I sit, you are starting to look like a bunch of elitist wankers. I know this is SA and I do believe anarchy should rule but this is going behond anything constructive or of any benfit to anyone.

Have your fun because you can, but I'd recommend you take it down a notch as a whole or you'll be chasing a lot of people away. I know it is what kept me out of the cats when I was young. There was a time when I was thinking of getting a big Nacra but after they tore the community apart, I lost interest.

Yes I know my opinion and a cup of coffee will get you the cup of coffee.

 

raff

Member
475
0
I am just thankful that Tornado Alive has not posted that pic of himself going downwind on Port Phillip Bay for 467th time. This is one of the few threads anywhere on SA to have escaped that picture.

 

TeamFugu

Super Anarchist
5,049
33
SLC, UT
I am just thankful that Tornado Alive has not posted that pic of himself going downwind on Port Phillip Bay for 467th time. This is one of the few threads anywhere on SA to have escaped that picture.
I'll bet it won't be long now that you brought it to his attention.

 

raff

Member
475
0
HawaiiDave said:
Interesting exchange. I agree with the comment that number of hulls doesn't matter as long as the result is fun.
Here's a new wrinkle: how about one and a half hulls? The Raptor 16 is a foil-stabilized sailing outrigger that goes to weather and comes through the wind like a monohull (all your weight is in the main hull, which itself weighs less than 40 lbs.), has the performance of cats of comparable size, but can be paddled like the Hawaiian OC-1 on which it is based. The ability to paddle (actually to "paddle-sail") adds an interesting dynamic when fleet or match racing. To win consistenly in all wind conditions over Olympic-type courses, you have to be an aerobic athlete as well as a good sailor. That is true of no other one design.

Check it out at www.hydrovisions.com.

(Yes, I am biased. My partner, designer John Slattebo, and I are starting to produce and sell them.)
paddle anarchy?

 

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