Chasing Elegua

Ovakus

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I was wondering if having someone make a backer out of g10 or delrin to close the space behind the fitting and then improve the fasteners.
Thoughts from a non-engineer, so disregard, improve or ridicule as needed:

If I wanted to keep that vang attachement but I decided that I wanted to do more than just tighten down the existing fasteners, and I needed something I could get started today, my gut instinct would be to pour in place a toughened G-Flex plug. That volume behind the vang attachement is complex enough that fitting G10 plate that bears on those surfaces over a large-ish area seems hard. If I had to do it, I'd probably 1) take off the vang attachment, clean (& maybe abrade) the inner surface of vang 2) cover the mast surface that sits under the vang attachment with packing tape -- I wouldn't packing tape the vang 3) Reattach vang attachment 4) Build liquid-proof dam between mast and attachment probably from packing tape too; maybe put some putty or butyl tape to keep G-Flex from flowing out sides near the existing fasteners or any other holes in vang 5) Mix up some G-Flex with added glass fibers (but not so much that the G-Flex can't flow) 6) Pour enough G-Flex in to test the bottom of dam 7) If it doesn't leak and before test amount of G-Flex fully kicks, then fill the rest of the volume with thickened G-flex to the top of the vang attachment 8) Leave everything in place --you could remove it all and clean up the packing tape etc but it may not be needed 9) I'd add some more fasteners (maybe a vertical row of two or so fasteners) in the middle of the vang attachment on both attachment flanges, tapping into the mast.

Stuff that I'd be worried about but don't know: a) Is G-Flex up to the task? Is it the right material; what about thickening filler -- milled glass fibers or West 404 etc b) Is the volume so big that it will get too hot when curing c) Care needed with the packing tape especially when dealing with the mainsail slug track to avoid making a plug that is permanently locked into the slug track d) are the extra fasteners needed at all? Is it problematic to have fasteners tapping into the mast at oblique angles?

BTW: It looks like another beautiful soft morning in the islands. Congratulations on making it, thanks for having us along for the ride.
 
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In photo 3 I see what is possibly your gooseneck??? I am not an engineer, or aircraft maintenance engineer and stand to be corrected, but it is common practice to have three threads showing beyond the nut. The nut in that fitting seems to barely exit the threads on the nut. I am not sure if that poses a problem or not.
 

estarzinger

Super Anarchist
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Hey, you just sparked a thought- Could he through-bolt the bracket through the existing holes if they line up? (I still advocate filling the gaps with a solid material)
It is not uncommon for thick pieces of tapped flat bar to be put inside the spar (as 'backing plates') to provide sufficient thread depth. This is easier to do with the stick out of the boat, but there are rigger's tricks to allow the flat bar to be placed while the stick is up.

(as a guy who worked on aluminum a lot) I was taught that in aluminum, you properly needed 2:1 thread engagement (eg threaded engagement depth = x2 fastner diameter). This provides for the fastener to shear before the threads strip. (note: typically 1:1 benchmark is used with threads in steel).

Hex/Allen head fasteners are preferred to Philips for this - more controlled torque and less chance of stripping.

I'm reluctant to provide suggestion for a 'solution' without seeing and knowing more. But I have a sinking feeling that if you just fill in behind this, you will be dealing with it again in 12 months if you do say the pacific (with all the passage fatigue cycles).
 
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slug zitski

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So here is the offending vang fitting. The top two screws backed themselves out and the fitting itself was flexing. I screwed them back in with a no 1 philips with as much torque as I could muster while offshore and they seem not to have moved. Seems like a robust unit until you realize it’s actually a small lever arm. Solutions range from - it’s screwed back in, leave it, to screw them back in with some red locktite to use bigger/better fasteners and put a support behind the fitting so it’s no longer a lever arm. Not a huge mainsail - about 360sq ft. Attaches to a rigid vang. View attachment 557560
First off….when at sea you must absolutely immobilize the boom…no movement ….no load cycling one million times as you cross the ocean

a gooseneck should have one hundred percent surface contact with the mast section

on your style this means bedding the gooseneck in thickenEd epoxy

fastening can be locktite , sikaflex or if done professionally you use a pellet type fastener

most good rigging shops have them in stock

E7401E0D-DC37-4757-82B0-E7153215D5F8.png
 

Elegua

Generalissimo
In photo 3 I see what is possibly your gooseneck??? I am not an engineer, or aircraft maintenance engineer and stand to be corrected, but it is common practice to have three threads showing beyond the nut. The nut in that fitting seems to barely exit the threads on the nut. I am not sure if that poses a problem or not.
It’s a wired locknut with full thread contact.
 

Elegua

Generalissimo
It is not uncommon for thick pieces of tapped flat bar to be put inside the spar (as 'backing plates') to provide sufficient thread depth. This is easier to do with the stick out of the boat, but there are rigger's tricks to allow the flat bar to be placed while the stick is up.

(as a guy who worked on aluminum a lot) I was taught that in aluminum, you properly needed 2:1 thread engagement (eg threaded engagement depth = x2 fastner diameter). This provides for the fastener to shear before the threads strip. (note: typically 1:1 benchmark is used with threads in steel).

Hex/Allen head fasteners are preferred to Philips for this - more controlled torque and less chance of stripping.

I'm reluctant to provide suggestion for a 'solution' without seeing and knowing more. But I have a sinking feeling that if you just fill in behind this, you will be dealing with it again in 12 months if you do say the pacific (with all the passage fatigue cycles).
Yes. This. Any bodges are just kicking the can. I’d like to address this properly.
 

Elegua

Generalissimo
@Elegua what are you doing down there besides fretting about the boat?

Dining at any exciting local restaurants? Hiking the national parks? Meeting the other cruisers? Have you gone swimming? What have you done for recreation?
Sorry, I got OT. It’s charter agent week so the island is overrun with charter agents and charter yachts. There are the usual tourist restaurants. Had some very good peri-peri chicken. Harder to get access to local culture. The gateway to that is taxi drivers. Skullduggery is a very neat “sailor” bar. The drinks are stiff as I think the fruit juice costs more than the rum. Some good hiking but it’s hot as blazes. My wife says heaven runs from 4pm to 8am and hell from 8-4. We cook in the early am and eat cold food during the day, home made ginger beer is available that is delicious. Nelson’s Dockyard is pretty cool. Eager to get to Green Island, Barbuda…etc…
 
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slug zitski

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Sorry, I got OT. It’s charter agent week so the island is overrun with charter agents and charter yachts. There are the usual tourist restaurants. Had some very good peri-peri chicken. Harder to get access to local culture. The gateway to that is taxi drivers. Skullduggery is a very neat “sailor” bar. The drinks are stiff as I think the fruit juice costs more than the rum. Some good hiking but it’s hot as blazes. My wife says heaven runs from 4pm to 8am and he’ll from 8-4. We cook in the early am and eat cold food during the day, home made ginger beer is available that is delicious.
Jump in your tender and go to the cat club, familiarize yourself with the little shipyard and the small contractors working on boats

they have a very pleasant bar
 

slug zitski

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Sorry, I got OT. It’s charter agent week so the island is overrun with charter agents and charter yachts. There are the usual tourist restaurants. Had some very good peri-peri chicken. Harder to get access to local culture. The gateway to that is taxi drivers. Skullduggery is a very neat “sailor” bar. The drinks are stiff as I think the fruit juice costs more than the rum. Some good hiking but it’s hot as blazes. My wife says heaven runs from 4pm to 8am and he’ll from 8-4. We cook in the early am and eat cold food during the day, home made ginger beer is available that is delicious.
Jump in your tender and go to the cat club, familiarize yourself with the little shipyard and the small contractors working on boats

they have a very pleasant bar
 

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
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Have you checked here?

PB concern on the gooseneck bolt is correct - but maybe a different issue. Are there threads on that bolt bearing against the aluminum casting? Very bad if so - the threads will abrade the alum away over time, they act as a file.
 

bgytr

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will get back later today with a sketch.. out running some errands.
Screenshot_20221205-125149_Gallery.jpg

here's the base of my vang. Much smaller attachment. The part connected to the mast has a key that fits closely into the slot that transfers the side load to the extrusion. The vertical pin is close to the mast, so there is less moment arm to twist the part when loaded in the athwartship direction. Also, the part is thick.
It might be as simple as buying this part for your setup if it fits to your mast and vang.
 

accnick

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Hey, you just sparked a thought- Could he through-bolt the bracket through the existing holes if they line up? (I still advocate filling the gaps with a solid material)
Not quite sure what you mean here. I assume those are machine screws going into threads tapped into the mast walls. How would you through-bolt the bracket? If you are talking about a long bolt all the way across the mast from one set of holes to the opposite ones, it looks like the angles are wrong for that, since the fastenings need to sit flat on the opposite surfaces. The real problem is probably the bracket itself, rather than just the fastenings.
 

Elegua

Generalissimo
Have you checked here?

PB concern on the gooseneck bolt is correct - but maybe a different issue. Are there threads on that bolt bearing against the aluminum casting? Very bad if so - the threads will abrade the alum away over time, they act as a file.
Delrin sheave/sleeve between the bolt and the gooseneck. There was a little slop from 40 years of wear so we smoothed it and added the sleeve for a tight fit. I have a spare sleeve for when it wears out. This was done with the riggers at Lyman Morse.

I’ve found it easier to get things cnc’d than buy from Rig-rite, sadly.
 

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
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Yes the design of your bracket is abysmal. The suggestions to use backing plates are good if it can be done without pulling the spar. I have had success with a pre-drilled & tapped plate carefully dangled from a halyard exit slot. Coat hanger wire to hook it into position, used very long screw at first thru top hole to finally capture plate & hold it secure. After other screws (proper length ) installed, long screw replaced.
 

accnick

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Those Isomat vang fittings and toggles from Rig Rite, assuming they have them in stock and will respond, seem like the obvious solution. No need to re-invent the wheel if you can find the OEM parts.
 

Jud - s/v Sputnik

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Why would you prefer stainless?

I wouldn't want shiny glisteny stuff on a luff I'd be watching for sail trim. Dulled bronze seems to be to preferable.
That’s detailed thinking...:)

I was originally thinking of stainless hanks (I.e., snap hooks) because of potential staining of the sail from bronze oxide when sail is packed, quite possibly wet. But likely not an issue, now that I think about it. What do I know (not much, about many things).
 

Sail4beer

Usual suspect
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Stainless snap Wichards are very good for small daysailors, but if you’re up in cold land and not taking the sail off, those bronze hanks are just fine. Remember to give them a drop of penetrating oil once in a while to keep the salt accumulation down.
 

accnick

Super Anarchist
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Stainless snap Wichards are very good for small daysailors, but if you’re up in cold land and not taking the sail off, those bronze hanks are just fine. Remember to give them a drop of penetrating oil once in a while to keep the salt accumulation down.
I would rather see wear on my bronze sail hanks than on my stainless steel stay.

The aversion to furlers on the staysail mystifies me. I started out with a hank-on staysail, but went to a staysail furler (same size as the one on the genoa) after a few thousand miles of going forward to un-bag a staysail when I wanted it.

A small staysail is pretty compact when furled, and the additional windage never bothered me or seems a measurable detriment to performance. I come from a serious racing background, and will do a lot to get the most out of a cruising boat.

The original staysail had to be re-cut for the furler, and when we had the boat in NZ, North Sails designed and built a staysail specifically for use as a storm headsail when partially furled. The original Doyle mainsail, genoa, and staysail went into the bin for the sailing scouts in Auckland, and Burns Fallow (North NZ) helped us re-configure the working sailplan to something both more efficient and easier to handle.

By the way, that North main was finally retired by the current owner of my old boat earlier this year, 22 years and at least 35,000 miles of hard sailing after it was built. The staysail is still on the boat.

Sometimes, safety and convenience trump ultimate performance. If it's easy to re-configure the headsail combination, it's actually easier to sail the boat more efficiently and effectively in a wider variety of conditions, at least for me.

It is a hell of a lot easier to roll up the genoa and roll out the staysail if you are configured either as a cutter or as a "sloop with fixed inner forestay" than it is to go up on the foredeck. Generally speaking, in conditions where you are using the staysail as a very heavy air headsail, you don't really want to go on the foredeck for anything if you can avoid it.
 

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
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From way back memory of hanked sails: saw more rust stains from luff wire, and oil stains from over eager lubing of piston hanks than actual green staining

Furler vs hanks: furler has ease of use, but added weight aloft, complexity, UV cover on sail, windage, another line to lead aft, cost, sheet lead changes a lot when reefed
Hanks: can be slab reefed, low complexity, no added weight, need to hoist to use (Sail can be tied down without sailbag) Halyard could be brought aft, secured at sail with velcro. Reefed sheet lead can be made same as full hoist.
 

TwoLegged

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Sometimes, safety and convenience trump ultimate performance. If it's easy to re-configure the headsail combination, it's actually easier to sail the boat more efficiently and effectively in a wider variety of conditions, at least for me.
They don't just trump ultimate performance when cruising. It also applies to shorthanded racing.

Phil Weld won the 1980 OSTAR in part because he used sail-handling systems which didn't wear him out by making him lug headsails onto the foredeck in bad conditions. So he could have the right amount of sail up and avoid exhaustion, which allowed him to make better decisions.

Thereafter, the BOC Challenge normalised the use of roller furling headsails for long-distance shorthanded races.

The curious thing is that it took more than a generation after that for the design of solo racing vessels to abandon the open cockpit concept inherited from crewed boats. Permanent dodgers became the norm by the late 2000s, but it took until 2016 for the first IMOCA to have basically an indoors cockpit.

It's odd that even big, expensive expedition-oriented cruising boats still mostly require their crew to work outside.
 




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