Chicago Race Committee Fiasco

Wuffie

Member
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4
I seem to recall a Chicago NOOD distance race from a few years ago in which the race committee was not in place for the early finishers. When I write "not in place" I mean nowhere to be found. I don't know how many boats were affected but the race was scored based upon self-reported times (for at least some of the boats).

 
Brass ... the concept of boats taking their own times of finishing is ALWAYS fraught with suspicion. Someone will always accuse someone else of fiddling. USS prescription allowing that is not in the ISAF RRS. That's what it means!

Class racing it doesn't matter - times are (generally) irrelevant - only finish order.

Question. If the SI DON'T define which end the RC boat & finish mark will be (and that's not uncommon) then which side does one pass/leave the mark if the RC boat is absent? and how far away from it is acceptable - 1 mile?

 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
Brass ... the concept of boats taking their own times of finishing is ALWAYS fraught with suspicion. Someone will always accuse someone else of fiddling. USS prescription allowing that is not in the ISAF RRS. That's what it means!

Class racing it doesn't matter - times are (generally) irrelevant - only finish order.

Question. If the SI DON'T define which end the RC boat & finish mark will be (and that's not uncommon) then which side does one pass/leave the mark if the RC boat is absent? and how far away from it is acceptable - 1 mile?
The prescription US Sailing prescribes that, if a finishing mark is missing but another one remains in place, the finishing line is a line through the remaining mark at a 90 [degree] angle to the last leg and of the shortest practicable length. If the race committee is absent when a boat finishes, she should report to the race committee her finishing time and her position in relation to nearby boats at the first reasonable opportunity.

if the Race committee is missing, that is a missing mark, so the shortest practical length, i would think would be measured in boat lengths, most probably less than 7..., thinking of a gate as a leward mark as a guide for a short practical length. Surely less than 1000 yards....

In this case the finish, both the mark, location and side to pass was described in the SIs (Some boats tried to arugue they went between the RC and the Finish mark a mile away (Except it was pointed out they took the finish mark to Starboard, instead of the SI listed Port passing)

 

Brass

Super Anarchist
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The US Sailing prescription allows boats to finish on either side of the remaining mark crossing a line through the mark of the shortest practicable length, that is either side, but as close as practicable to the mark'

 

ftbinc

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Chciago
If the first boat that finished, w/o the committee boat present had used an iphone to photo the boats as they cross the "Line" the time in the meta data, plus the picture with a sailnumber should be enough for and disputes on when someone crossed... but it takes presents of mind to do this. Fortunately, this does not happen often. This would have given the RC and PC a chance to save the race...

The RC boat did make an honest mistake of setting up at the wrong location AND they freely admitted this. I really respect their honesty and humility during the Saturday night hearing. All of us should be so honest and humble.

 

lcomet

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I sailed this race. We had the coordinates for the instruction stated finish line when we were about 1/2 mile out but as we scanned the horizon looking for the committee boat, we found it flying the LARGE blue flag. It was about 3/4 mile to the west of the coordinate. We re-read the finish line instruction to finish between the committee boat and a mark (not defined in the finish line instruction as an orange mark), Now you choose, do you go right to the gps coordinate or do you go to the finish line? How many times do we see the finish line does not line up with the gps instruction which is approximate anyway? It happens often in distance races. We finished first going to the finish line as defined by the committee boat. They acknowledged our finish. We win, right?

Of course not. As we all know races are not always won on the course, they are too often won in the protest room.

My .02 is that they should have given anyone who went around the orange mark some time, maybe 3 to 5 minutes for the extra distance traveled. You can' disqualify boats that went to the finish line defined by the committee boat.

 

Gangbusters

Anarchist
880
296
Chicago
Better read the SI's again

Under #9 Marks 9.2 The starting mark will be a green inflatable and the finishing mark will be an orange inflatable. The mark that the boat was using was not an inflatable. There was however an orange inflatable at the stated coordinates. Just no boat nearby.

 

lcomet

New member
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I have read them carefully. No orange mark under #13 finish line, I admit there is ambiguity between #9 and #13 but who would disregard a committee boat defined line for a coordinate?

Clearly, the RC screwed this one up and admitted such. They set a mark and then the committee boat goes a different area and sets up a line. Had they set up where they should have been, we would have gone there and still won. We had enough time between us and the 2nd place boat to cover this possibility. It would not have taken us anymore time to go to the coordinates than to the committee boat line at the time we altered course to go to the finish line.

 

JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
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South East England
(Except it was pointed out they took the finish mark to Starboard, instead of the SI listed Port passing)
Superficially at least that does not sound like a valid SI instruction. The finish *line* is crossed from the direction of the last mark regardless of what anyone puts in the SIs because you can't change a definition.

 
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ftbinc

Member
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Chciago
I sailed this race. We had the coordinates for the instruction stated finish line when we were about 1/2 mile out but as we scanned the horizon looking for the committee boat, we found it flying the LARGE blue flag. It was about 3/4 mile to the west of the coordinate. We re-read the finish line instruction to finish between the committee boat and a mark (not defined in the finish line instruction as an orange mark), Now you choose, do you go right to the gps coordinate or do you go to the finish line? How many times do we see the finish line does not line up with the gps instruction which is approximate anyway? It happens often in distance races. We finished first going to the finish line as defined by the committee boat. They acknowledged our finish. We win, right?

Of course not. As we all know races are not always won on the course, they are too often won in the protest room.

My .02 is that they should have given anyone who went around the orange mark some time, maybe 3 to 5 minutes for the extra distance traveled. You can' disqualify boats that went to the finish line defined by the committee boat.
SI 9: Marks

SI 9.2: The Starting mark will be a green inflatable mark and the finish mark will be an orange inflatable mark

SI 13 The Finish

the finish line will be between a staff displaying a blue flag on the race committee boat and the course side of the finishing mark to be left to port ...

It seems clear to me there was no finish mark (as described in the race instructions) anywhere close to the Committee boat that was down at Skyline mark 1. This seems to be the problem for the Protest Committee did not feel they could resolve fairly to all competitors. They abandoned the race and I believe CYC will refund all fees.

I am curious which boat were you on?

 

lcomet

New member
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I am the owner of Jahazi. I agree that with the screw up, in effect, there were 2 race courses on the last leg, and once determining that, and without an agreement as to a redress, the race needed to be abandoned.

There was quite a bit of radio traffic asking the race committee for instructions as to the finish line and if they had responded promptly, this could have been avoided. Too bad, we had a great race.

 

ftbinc

Member
201
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Chciago
I am the owner of Jahazi. I agree that with the screw up, in effect, there were 2 race courses on the last leg, and once determining that, and without an agreement as to a redress, the race needed to be abandoned.

There was quite a bit of radio traffic asking the race committee for instructions as to the finish line and if they had responded promptly, this could have been avoided. Too bad, we had a great race.
Jahazi did have a GREAT race and deserved to win this race. Additionally, Jahazi was one of the boats that freely and honestly admitted, when asked by the Protest committee, they did not take the orange inflatable mark to port. Proud to know you and compete with you. You guys are the winners in my book on all counts.

 

lcomet

New member
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Thanks,

I consider racing a sailboat a pleasure and an honor. There is no way I would ever, ever, not be totally honest in reporting a finish. I would hope that other competitors would do the same. I admitted I didn't go around the orange mark, imagine my surprise when I saw other boats who were with us reporting a finish. There was a large gap between the first 5 boats who followed each other across the committee boat finish line after getting no other instructions from the RC about what we were seeing on the course on the radio. The rest of the fleet followed each other around the orange mark, they reported they didn't see the committee boat and that may have been true.

It was a beautiful day to race, sorry it ended in a heap on the protest room floor.

 

Go Fuck Yourself

Super Anarchist
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Fuckoffville
fi·as·co
/fēˈaskō/

noun

a thing that is a complete failure, especially in a ludicrous or humiliating way.



Really? Wow. This is a motivator to go out on my next non sailing day and volunteer my time. Fucking tough crowd. I got an idea, see you at a race volunteering your time to RC in an effort to make thing better.. Otherwise -

RC Volunteer: Son, we live in a world that has sailboat races, and those sailboat races have to be manned by volunteers. Who's going to do it? You? You, Capt. Whineburger? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the distance racers who went to the wrong finish, and you curse the RC. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the wrong finish line, while tragic, probably wasn’t done on purpose. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is what it is. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at YC parties, you want me on that boat, you need me on that boat. We use words like, distance, wind direction, and square course. We use these words as the backbone of a day spent building something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very race course that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a clipboard, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Asshat: Did you put that mark in the water?

RC Volunteer: I did the job I...

Asshat: Did you set up a finish line in the wrong location?

RC Volunteer: You're Goddamn right I did!

Note, my ass was out racing this weekend, thanking the RC boat as we went by....

 
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JimC

Not actually an anarchist.
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South East England
(Except it was pointed out they took the finish mark to Starboard, instead of the SI listed Port passing)
But so what. If they passed between the finish boat and the orange mark from the direction of the last mark then they finished legitimately. Case 129 and to an extent Case 82.

 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
fi·as·co

/fēˈaskō/

noun

a thing that is a complete failure, especially in a ludicrous or humiliating way.

Really? Wow. This is a motivator to go out on my next non sailing day and volunteer my time. Fucking tough crowd. I got an idea, see you at a race volunteering your time to RC in an effort to make thing better.. Otherwise -

RC Volunteer: Son, we live in a world that has sailboat races, and those sailboat races have to be manned by volunteers. Who's going to do it? You? You, Capt. Whineburger? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the distance racers who went to the wrong finish, and you curse the RC. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the wrong finish line, while tragic, probably wasn’t done on purpose. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is what it is. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at YC parties, you want me on that boat, you need me on that boat. We use words like, distance, wind direction, and square course. We use these words as the backbone of a day spent building something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very race course that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a clipboard, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Asshat: Did you put that mark in the water?

RC Volunteer: I did the job I...

Asshat: Did you set up a finish line in the wrong location?

RC Volunteer: You're Goddamn right I did!

Note, my ass was out racing this weekend, thanking the RC boat as we went by....
Blubber, On this posting there were at least two, if not three boats represented, I was on one of them. I really hope my posts were not taken as trashing the Race committee or the Protest committee. I truly respect their time and said more than once they made a mistake, but they handled it in an honorable way. This in no way takes away from the appreciation that We have on our boat boat for these volunteers. I thank them at every opportunity.

Just for your information, I will be on two different race committee signal boats in the next week volunteering my time, with clipboard in hand.

 

ftbinc

Member
201
0
Chciago
(Except it was pointed out they took the finish mark to Starboard, instead of the SI listed Port passing)
But so what. If they passed between the finish boat and the orange mark from the direction of the last mark then they finished legitimately. Case 129 and to an extent Case 82.
There are two problems with this:

1. The protest committee found in hearing the committee boat was NOT on station

2. This would have made the finish line 1 mile long at 315 degrees. The mark the committee boat use to finish the boats could have been crossed, without breaking the "plane" of the finish line that ran 315/135 degrees from the committee boat to the orange inflatable mark, plus how would they identify boats at a distance of 1 mile and finish them accurately? 1500 yards is a long way in the haze...

 

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