Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[Mambo Kings]

I'm looking for my blue water cruising boat.

About me:

I'm perceived as a racing sailor in monohulls. I do enjoy racing. Two time Masters world champion in the international 21' sport boat class, Viper 640 and national Champion in 3 different classes. But my enjoyment of racing comes from a love of sailing.

Completely separate from racing, I love cruising and remote places. I grew up in Kenya. I have hiked around Patagonia and Nepal. I'm making plans to do the Malawi raid on a multihull with Alex Schon. So the next chapter in my life is to own and live part time aboard a blue water cruising boat.....probably 6 months of the year.

As I set about choosing my boat, I started with the idea of a expedition go-anywhere mono hull (Boreal, Allures, Garcia).....with 5 important criteria:

1. I want to be able to see the outdoors when I am indoors.. Some kind of pilot house boat. I don't want to descend into a cave when its cold outside. I want to enjoy the view when I am in the boat.

2. I am NOT going to race this boat but I want performance because I want to be able to cover distance in a timely way.
Importantly, the boat has to be a "joy to sail". I don't want to drive a cab around the world or have the autohelm steer 24/7. I am cruising around the world in a sailboat because I love helming sailboats. I understand that for long distance cruising I will use the autohelm a lot. But I want a boat that on a beautiful afternoon, with a perfect wave set and a narrow reach , I cannot resist turning off the autohelm and taking the helm because the feel of the boat is so beautiful.
I am not going to race this boat. I am keeping my racing separate from my cruising....so dont recommend a Gunboat. Its not on the list. But it has to be fast because I want to get to interesting places and cover a lot of miles and I want a boat that is truly a joy to sail.

3. The boat has to be seaworthy and protected. When I am faced with unavoidable bad weather on the open ocean, I want to be confident in my craft. If choosing between the vertical beam that ensures the boat is stiff and seaworthy in 55 knots and following seas or a perfect wide opening between saloon and cockpit for serving cocktails......I choose the beam.

4. The boat has to be manageable single handed. My family and my wonderful friends are going to join me for most parts of my voyage but I have greater independence than they have and there will be times when I want to sail on my own. This is important!

5. The boat has to be beautiful inside and out. I am not stopping racing. Race boats are spartan . My cruising boat will not be spartan.

So inevitably criteria 1 and 2 have shifted the search to mutihulls. First to the Dragonfly (beautiful workmanship and a joy to sail but probably not a live aboard) then to blue water performance cats.

The current shortlist includes:

Outremer 51
Balance 482 or 526
Slyder 49
C-Cat 48 (56 is probably too big) . This is on the list because I really like the two helm positions...more on that later.

Hovering on the outskirts but probably not going to make the short list:

• Some fantastic Chris White designs: If I purchased new, this would be a custom build project. I dont have enough cruising multi-hull experience to supervise and specify that project. There is nothing on the used market that captures me. In buying one of the established manufacturers I am buying all the accumulated experience and refinement of hundreds of thousands of miles of previous owners.
• The ORC 50 from Marsaudon Composites. It really doesn't fit my criteria because it leans too far towards the spartan racing orientated end of the spectrum. But I just cannot help myself from admiring beautifully executed boats from a yard with such a stellar reputation, and yes I enjoy a tiller. The build quality will be impeccable. A 50 foot boat with an empty weight that really is 8.6 tons because they weigh everything they build down to the gram....and can be filled with 5 tonnes of equipment, fittings and gear and still go like shit off a shovel. I have not been able to put the red line through it...but nor has it made the short list because the interiors are not lined (nor should they be). I think it will feel spartan for my guests and I worry it will be noisy (and I want to be able to visit cold places).....but God what a boat. The price/value is also attractive.
• HH Catamarans. I don't need the all carbon hull because I'm not racing. But Seth wants to come Viper racing with me so I'm leaving the window open for him to persuade me.

Gunboats are not on the list. I dont have that kind of folding money or the ego.

Have at it.......tell me what I am missing and what are the pros and cons of my short list. I am a good listener and I will reply to your posts.

In my next post I will list my perceieved pros and cons of my short list. But I will let you go first, except I will talk about helming positions.

 

[Mambo Kings]

My race boats have mostly all been called Mambo Kings.
The exception are some dinghies from an earlier life called "Yer Jammy Lads" and an RC boat called "Shaken Not Steered " (Hull number 007).

I have veered away from calling this boat Mambo Kings VIII because I want to be so clear that I am not going to race this boat. By the way, nobody believes me. All of my friends think I will not be able to help myself and will gradually upgrade sails etc. So please believe me This will be a blue water fast cruising boat....nothing else.

Of course, I expect to be first home in one of those Caribbean rally things or the ARC but really I am not going to race.....I will not race!

Although if somebody tries to overtake me in a similar boat en route from one tropical island to the next , I am obviously going to respond. I was helping David deliver his Hallberg Rassy from CT to Annaplis this fall and I was very well behaved and very relaxed as a similar boat gradually worked its way past to leeward. But I finally said "Sorry guys, I cant stand this" ....got up , moved the genoa cars forward, trimmed the traveller to windward, eased the sheet.....took the helm and ended that grinding annoyance. David is one of those who doesnt believe me.

Anyway....I'm coming to my point. Since this will NOT be a racing boat. I was looking for a new name.

I am leaning towards Uhuru . It is swahili from my youth and means "freedom" or "independent".

Uniform Hotel Uniform Romeo Uniform

 

[steelmadesteamer]

The current shortlist includes:

Outremer 51
Balance 482 or 526
Slyder 49
C-Cat 48

Have You tried any of the above to keep them all shortlisted for Your sailing plans?

 

[Zonker]

Yeah, sailing a big multi can be fast but the feel of a fast mono isn't quite the same.

It's more like driving a very fast bus

I didn't know of the Slyder 49 so I looked them up. Their German roots betray them. Way too much overhead sun and not enough front ventilation in the saloon for anywhere warm. BIG fucking front hatches are essential. Also - plastic windows are NOT light compared to a glass/foam laminate.

Also this: "Exceptional in this class is our high quality PLC electrical system."

Unless you are an electrician or electrical engineer, that statement would fill me with dread. PLCs are little mini computers for industrial application. Very reliable and great for process control and automation but all require programming. Why have that on a pleasure boat?

They only appear to have built the 49; the bigger boats on their website are just renderings. How many boats have they built?

 

[Mambo Kings]

Helm Positions

There are three circumstances when I want to switch off the autohelm and drive

1. Joy of sailing. A beautiful day and I just want to drive myself. For this I want exposure , wind in my hair and above all great sight lines of the sails and the bows and the water. (It is possible I want this helming position if Im close to another similar boat .....I mean not to race or anything but just to make sure there is a helming position where I can sail the boat to its absolute maximum capability).

2. Really bad weather where I need to take over from the autohelm because I can steer a boat through big waves and the peak of bad weather better than any autohelm. This helming position needs to be thoroughly sheltered from the weather and have good visibility forward. An interior helming position would be very cool.

3. Maneuvering into the dock. Good visibility is pretty much all that matters , and a good answer to criteria #1 probably satisfies #3 as well.

I dont see many blue water performance cats meeting my simple requirements.

The Outremer 51 has the aft outboard tiller option which I imagine provides helming position #1. But the second mid cockpit helming position , stuck outside the bimini on starboard is not at all sheltered and seems like a woeful compromise to me.

The Slyder has two wheels on either side aft, which is great for wind in your hair but provides no shelter at all. Not from bad weather and not from the sun when crusing in the tropics.

The versa- helm on the Slyder is clever. The upstairs position answers criteria #3 and the downstairs position provides more shelter than most from the elements for criteria #2 . But there is not really the joy of sailing helm position like the Outremer and Slyder.

The combination I really like is C Cats helming options. Two aft open helms and One indoors at the front of the saloon a bit like some of the Chris White designs.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Have You tried any of the above to keep them all shortlisted for Your sailing plans?

Working on it.....and all offers accepted for the short list and the long list. I can jump in a plane at reasonably short notice, I pay my own way, I'm a competent sailor, I always bring suitable refreshment and I enjoy the company of sailors.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Yeah, sailing a big multi can be fast but the feel of a fast mono isn't quite the same.

It's more like driving a very fast bus

Do you mean the cat feels more like driving a fast bus? and the multi hull lacks the sensation of a monohull. I have driven some very dull mono hulls in my time and some wonderful monohulls.
I think the challenge with any cruising boat is finding one that has great feel. I will only know by driving them.

I am amused and frustrated when I ask the brokers:
VMK: "Is the boat in the water?"
Broker : "Yes"
VMK: " Can I fly to you and take it for a sail"
Broker ; "Not until we have agreed a sale and you have paid a deposit"
VMK " Here is my number. I am a serious cash buyer, prepared to fly from the USA to Europe to see the boat you have listed. Call me when you have a serious seller that wants to allow his boat to be taken for a test sail."

Hence this thread, because some of you will have sailed these boats.

I didn't know of the Slyder 49 so I looked them up. Their German roots betray them. Way too much overhead sun and not enough front ventilation in the saloon for anywhere warm. BIG fucking front hatches are essential. Also - plastic windows are NOT light compared to a glass/foam laminate.

View attachment 564509

Also this: "Exceptional in this class is our high quality PLC electrical system."

Unless you are an electrician or electrical engineer, that statement would fill me with dread. PLCs are little mini computers for industrial application. Very reliable and great for process control and automation but all require programming. Why have that on a pleasure boat?

They only appear to have built the 49; the bigger boats on their website are just renderings. How many boats have they built?

This is the risk with the Slyder. Have they built enough boats and acquired enough feedback and experience to evolved a blue water boat? Your question about overhead sun protection and ventilation was on my list of cons. The question about PLC systems was not on my radar screen. I am not an electrical engineers but my father , my brother and my son are electrical and software engineers. I will ask the right questions. Thank you very much for that heads up.

 

[Keith]

Your a sailor,

Get a cat that is actually designed to sail very well, first.
Everything else will fall into place.

Don't get a cat that is designed to charter party, that will eliminate 90% of the boats you don't need to look at.

Don't get anything that doesn't have dagger boards, light weight construction, one meter minimum bridge deck clearance, a powerful rig (you can always reef) and excellent all around visibility and protection from the helms.

I always felt a powerful sailing cat felt more like a galloping horse....

 

[Zonker]

My wife the writer said, when in confused seas, it felt like a dog on roller skates.

She has a way with words.

 

[Mambo Kings]

I should also mention that I looked at the Kinetic 54 . This is more to illustrate my taste and criteria than as a serious contender.
There is much to like:
I liked the helm positions. The forward access door is a well thought our, Chris White derivation.
By all reputes it is fast and fits the criteria of sailing beautifully.
I think I like the idea of a centerboard. One of the things I liked about the Garcia and Boreal monohulls was going very shallow and even going aground. If you hit something at night with a centerboard, I find myself wondering if less goes wrong than with a dagger board.
It is fitted to cruising standard and is not a stripped out race boat.
The workmanship is tremendous. RSA has some great quality yards.

The reason I have not done much serious research is that;
It is on the large side for me to sail single handed or double handed.
It is truly luxurious and very expensive. I'm not ready to commit that amount of capital to my first cruising boat.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Your a sailor,

Get a cat that is actually designed to sail very well, first.

Yup. 100%. You have me to a tee.

Everything else will fall into place.

Not necessarily. That ORC 50 sails fantastically. But it might not be a boat I can live on for 6 months of the year. Open to opinions if anyone is familiar with the boat.

Don't get a cat that is designed to charter party, that will eliminate 90% of the boats you don't need to look at.

That is not happening. 95% of the cats that are for sale are irrelevant to me.

Dont get me wrong. I am not a performance snob. The Leopards and Lagoons are truly perfect for many families. I celebrate anyone spending time on the Ocean. Taking your family and friends sailing is a gift you will never regret and many of these boats are ideal for that. They exude hospitality and good will. I hope I will meet many on my voyages. However, in my case I dont need the space. The joy of "feel" is very important for me....and I need to make reasonably fast progress from A to B.

Don't get anything that doesn't have dagger boards, light weight construction, one meter minimum bridge deck clearance, a powerful rig (you can always reef) and excellent all around visibility and protection from the helms.

I always felt a powerful sailing cat felt more like a galloping horse....

Galloping horses and dogs on roller skates......

I love the metaphors.

 

[Zonker]

Really depends on the sea state. Big ocean swells from astern and moderate winds, our boat just felt like it was gliding along. Nice hiss from the hull.

Short steep 2.5m seas on the beam - not so fun.

This is a hell of a step for a first cruising boat. Since it sounds like you have the funds I would try to find any of these boats available to charter. Won't be easy to find but worth it to get some sea time.

 

[Wess]

Mambo - you know what kinda multi we own. We love the type but it ain’t right for you. You would need a tri too big for the payload carrying ability to go RTW. You might not be aware the wife and I owned a variety of cats (and delivered many more). As much as I love multis I gotta be honest… you are not going to find a cat that is as fun to helm as a well designed monhull or tri. It’s the nature of that beast. Lots of good to cats but fun to helm ain’t one of them. Fast bus is accurate.

Will second something Zonk mentioned… ventilation. It’s a big deal.

You and I differ on spartan. I think spartan is a positive. I bet by the time you come back you do too. Simple systems. Easy access to all structure and systems is huge in my book.

ORC 50 would be on my list.

Used before new would be on my list.

Gotta have a tiller would be on my list.

While I go multi; don’t give up on the mono.

Good luck.

 

[steelmadesteamer]

But it might not be a boat I can live on for 6 months of the year.

Seems this is an addition # 6 to Your criteria.
And it requires You to define what You mean by "live on".

Expect You also need to find out Your budget as # 7.

You may also find it important to define the materials the boat is to be built of as # 8 (?)
This may not be that important for short trips, but crossing oceans requires a strong and reliable boat.

 

[MultiThom]

"I am cruising around the world in a sailboat because I love helming sailboats."
" I do enjoy racing. Two time Masters world champion in the international 21' sport boat class, Viper 640 and national Champion in 3 different classes. But my enjoyment of racing comes from a love of sailing."

What about sailing do you love? Wind in your face? You will still get that with a big cat...but you won't get a lot of tiller feel (even if you get a tiller); you won't get any leaning; you won't get much spray; you won't get much competition. You will get a lot of boredom on a passage--with a fast cat, though, you can avoid much of the bad weather (one of the nice things about the modern world). AND, you will get lazy over time since arriving an hour earlier 2 days from now by keeping perfect trim is likely not going to be worth the effort as you get lulled into the mindset of a cruiser.

The bus driving is apt. Driving a miata (Viper 640) at 120 mph (15 kts) is much more exciting than a greyhound bus at 90 (Big cat at 22 kts).

 

[Cats Rule]

Have you looked at Dazcat?

They have been working on new design currently, the Ocean Cruiser 55
https://www.multihullcentre.com/dazcat-ocean-cruiser/

They are also good at tweaking their designs to fit individual needs. They have a Dazcat 1495 currently sailing around the world that was modified to be wheel chair accessible
https://instagram.com/sv.artemis?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

[jmh2002]

I remember your posts in another thread. Not sure if you have any interest in an older boat that you could shape to your specific use but stay within budget (compared to other new builds or nearly new that you have mentioned) ?

If yes, here's a boat that might initially be outside your criteria, particularly length wise, but she has narrow hulls, so not really a 60 footer in terms of size, volume, or weight (10 tons mentioned - all carbon supposedly, plus carbon rotating mast and textile standing rigging).

Some huge performance available in a cruising context from those long narrow hulls, but with quite a lot of cruising comforts including protected helm, high bridge deck clearance, simple wipe clean interior (minimal wood/varnish), enough payload capability without affecting performance, ability to carry a large tender and outboard safe and high on davits (14ft RIB currently), etc, etc.

If you don't need all four cabins/bunks that's perfect because then the cabin ahead of the galley can be turned into extra storage/pantry/laundry/workshop, etc, which really makes live aboard life much more pleasant.

Looks like a weapon under sail (and in light air too) that would smoke most of the boats you mentioned in real world short handed cruising conditions.

So I thought I'd throw it up here as there were only 6 built and they rarely come on the market and it seems like it could blend many of the aspects that you are looking for.

Remember, long and light is king when it comes to multihull performance but that is difficult to truly achieve with a cruising payload in the sub 50ft size range.

Etincelle 60 Catamaran USD $760,000

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[longy]

I've been dreaming along the same lines, & after helping a client buy a cat (extensive searching & boat visits) have the following design criteria:
upper 40's in length - to get volumes desired (&payload) without fat hulls
'boxy' cabinhouse - I want a lot of FLAT windows to look out of
fully covered aft deck - room fro solar above, & my derm doc has already had her ways with my skin
mainsheet travelor on back end of roof - really clears up back of deck area
helm positions at deck level, just behind house, no roof penetrations. All sheets at hand from deck. The pivoting helm posts look good for this
full vertical headroom to get down into hulls - I'm 6'6" and several boats with blister cabins one had to turn around & back down into hulls. Not something desired to live aboard
galley up - visibility, ventilation, social access
moderate prod length - I want to fly the same sails off the windward bow if I need to get downwind & don't want to reach around powered up
I don't mind going to the mast to reef etc, not necessary to have all lines led aft. Maybe first reef only
daggerboards thru a very small keel - just enuff to take the ground carefully
shaft drive prop - I'll sacrifice a tiny bit of performance to get the simplicity & low maintenance of shafts
heads forward in bows - not high use, & helps keep weight out
I don't want seating for hordes - just 6 bodies. The rest can eat out back
big nav table/office desk
caBLE steering - all the other methods are too dead feeling
no self tacking jib - unless the track is recessed & goes much further outboard. No cruiser is going to short tack . engines do that.
ONE level deck - couple of steps up from transom into aft deck, big doors, all same level thru house
Of the cats I've studied:

HH - mostly good, but too much interior cover paneling thru out. I much prefer smooth hull interior for most of interior. Look at pics of the 60' boat above. But 44 is too short, 52 a bit big
Kinetics - same. Don't know if you could talk them into simplifying
Balance - again close, but not enuff. Berman is over opinionated & his views are gospel. I'd steal the hull & deck concepts, tho
Gunboat - I'm not racing this
Almost all of the older designs - deck house too small & rounded, no interior volume. Too many step up/down cockpit/salon levels

 

[jmh2002]

^ all good points, most of which I also have on my criteria after years around boats of all types.

Often people don't think of the smaller details, but sometimes those details can become big annoyances when living onboard and sailing full time.

 

[Zonker]

Those sterns.... so it's really a 50' boat with 10' sterns added. Nothing wrong with that if you can afford the moorage fees.

Ah - it's really like the early Outremers. Super skinny hulls with no room inside

The interior saloon is something only a Hollywood producer could like. Have 2 close friends over for dinner and sex on the leather loungy seat/bed thing to starboard.

Maybe I'm just projecting...

Seriously it's an interesting boat. Spartan, light, well rigged from what I can see, lots of money into the sails. Has tillers and a protected wheel steering station.

Only downside is maybe the higher (4200 hrs) on the engines.