Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[jmh2002]

Those sterns.... so it's really a 50' boat with 10' sterns added. Nothing wrong with that if you can afford the moorage fees.

Ah - it's really like the early Outremers. Super skinny hulls with no room inside

Seriously it's an interesting boat. Spartan, light, well rigged from what I can see, lots of money into the sails. Has tillers and a protected wheel steering station.

Only downside is maybe the higher (4200 hrs) on the engines.

^ all valid points Zonker (although maybe I'd say 5ft on the sterns, and another 5ft on the bows), and I think that's why these boats are harder to sell these days as people say 'oh but it's so small for a 60ft cat'.

However that may also mean that it could be ripe for bargain hunting as far as bigger boats go...

On the other hand, as you know many of those (negative?) points are exactly what makes it a good boat out there in the ocean or swinging at anchor on some tropical isle.

Long slim bows, long slim sterns, weight out of the ends, lots of reserve bouyancy without making her too full, so keeping the boat easily driven.

And all things that definitely make it useless as a marina queen.

Yes it reminds me of the early Outremers, but it seems roomy and large inside compared to an early O55 and I expect faster too.

Unless building a custom boat or spending big money on a very perfect new high end production boat it really does become difficult to tick a lot of the boxes if you want to go fast but not cut your toothbrushes in half and stand outside in the sun and rain all the time while cruising

The simplest answer to those problems seems to be to add waterline and end up with a boat like this.

We always circle back to the fact that all boats are a compromise.

But that doesn't look like too bad of a compromise all things considered, and if it could be bought for the right price.

Certainly cruising performance would be out of this world given the creature comforts that it offers vs the price point.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

The Étincelle is a good choice. In fact, the one I know is owned by a couple who are very good F-boat trimaran racers.

Another option is the Schionning G-Force 1500. Google ‘Mojo Schionning’ for an example.

Me, WRT Outremer, I’d be on the older Danson designs, I don’t care for the later models

 

[Mambo Kings]

The bus driving is apt. Driving a Porsche 911 (Viper 640) at 120 mph (18 kts) is much more exciting than a greyhound bus at 90 (Big cat at 22 kts).

Short steep 2.5m seas on the beam - not so fun.

As much as I love multis I gotta be honest… you are not going to find a cat that is fun to helm ...... It’s the nature of that beast. Lots of good to cats but fun to helm ain’t one of them. Fast bus is accurate.

with a big cat...but you won't get a lot of tiller feel (even if you get a tiller); you won't get any leaning; you won't get much spray; you won't get much competition. You will get a lot of boredom on a passage

You are a cheerful lot.

With encouragement like this, who needs naysayers?

Its okay I realize that you are educating me with the realities of compromise.

 

[jmh2002]

Here's an extra photo of the Etincelle 60 that you might like. Not only tillers (in addition to the wheel steering), but a whole bank of instruments at the tillers too! Someone really liked to sail that boat at some point in it's history...

 

[Mambo Kings]

Seems this is an addition # 6 to Your criteria.
And it requires You to define what You mean by "live on".

See #5 above. I expect to spend months on the boat not weeks.

Expect You also need to find out Your budget as # 7.

I have a sense of my budget . Although I live in the USA, I'm British and and we prefer not to talk about money.

You may also find it important to define the materials the boat is to be built of as # 8 (?)
This may not be that important for short trips, but crossing oceans requires a strong and reliable boat.

Agreed. See #3 above. Construction is important.

 

[usa169]

I’ve seen you drive a viper in big breeze. Make sure you get something stable and reef early

 

[mpenman]

It's kinda funny, but Zonker has obviously sailed or touched a large number of boats. Way too knowledgeable about the things that matter. I would call him first quite frankly.

After seeing the crap I see on a way too frequent basis I feel it imperative to comment.

You mention many boats on your list and you mention Chris White's boats. I have owned a few of Chris's boats so my bias is obviously there. There are some GB boats I love and there are some I would not touch with a 10ft pole. I will tell you that the 66 is the best looking catamaran ever designed. Sexiest damn boat ever. That being said there are some 66's that I would not own.

Talk with Shayne Young about your options and what he thinks about each of those boats. Call him, don't email. He'll tell you what to look for. He'll tell you straight too.

Many, many, many boats have serious build quality issues. No one wants to address or admit this because people buy a boat based on a certain price. This means that the boat is built to that price, not to a certain quality. Many think that China, Taiwan, South Africa are cheaper and better than the US, but I don't believe that to be true.

Of your list and further options you mentioned, I'd only take the Balance 526. That simple. Phil and Jonathan are world class in this arena.

You mentioned the Gunboats being race boats, but I'd argue that a good cruising cat can be raced and raced well. GB's are fast but put the same amount of canvas on a GB and CW boat and I'll put real money in telling you who will be first. That however should not be your priority.

If you want outside helm positions ala the Outremer, GB, HH, then you don't have kids or a wife. They'll tell you that there is no way they are doing a watch sitting out there on the side of the boat where you can fall off if you're not paying attention in the middle of the night in 25+knts wind and 10 ft seas. Yeah. yeah, you can see the sails better and it's a better helm position.......the French are the best offshore sailors in the world, but I can tell you that Charles and Frank sail from the inside on Gitana!!! You will too, but don't quote me, just buy me a plate of french fries.

I'd talk with owners that own these boats and I would also talk with the paid pros that manage these boats. Don't talk with the yards. Talk with the owners about 'REAL' after sales support when things don't work. I've seen outright delam's on far too many boats. I've seen bog on a boat that would make an illicit car repair company cringe.

Personally, some of the expedition boats built in aluminum are way better options than many cats.........and I'm a multi-hull bigot.

Go sail the boats first. I mean do 1,000 miles on each of these boats first and then make a decision........

If you're serious about one of these boats and you're buying used then you're talking 750k +. If you are thinking new, then you're most probably 2.5-3.5+MM new if you're thinking about a Balance. Let's agree that there are 60-80k man hours in each of these boats.

You're doing a lot of name dropping here, so ask that dude who sailed that red Outremer if the ORC57 is better than a HH!!! I'm sure he'll give the skinny on a phone call. Ask him about a CW boat and if the forward cockpit is really a firehose when sailing. Then call my boss (ala the wife) and ask her opinion. She has 40k opinionated miles behind her..........oh and she's now biased too.



Frankly the real issue is tenders. I'm trying to convince her that Russel's rowing tender is the way to go. She's okay with one, so long as it's on the upper davits and only I use it.........give it time, I'll show her the real value!!!!!

 

[Veeger]

Hmmm. As you are well aware, intellectually if not emotionally ready, all boats are compromises. Two things jump out at me here. One, is part time cruising vs full time liveaboard, only home, type cruising. The 2nd is ability to single hand or short hand.

To me, this pretty much rules out anything 50' and up. I 'get' the sailing feel thing, looked for it myself. (As an aside, and not a suggestion, I'd tell you that my Mainecat 38 was a close as one can come to that in a cat,but... I digress)

What you're describing is either a Schionning or a Chris White cat. His 42 is a touch small but do-able. I'd look for the 46' version and I think you'll find you have a package with the least compromises on your list.

Cruising tends to shift one's priorities and you'll have to decide and pretty much choose between cruise mode or race mode. Cruise mode means you carry a bit more water and fuel, trust me, you WILL want this. Liquids add a huge amount of weight, very quickly and that kind of tankage (100+ gallons each of fuel and water) is something no performance design will offer you--because it then wouldn't be a performance design! Okay, a mid 50'er might but you won't be singlehanding it! See what happens??

That mainsail will be a beast on a 50+ and the Code Zero won't be 'easy' either.

I know, you CAN do these things, but pretty quick you'll start asking yourself.."Exactly, 'Why' am I working so hard here?" The need to sail fast will fade pretty quickly once you're 'out there'. Testosterone drives a 17 year old pretty hard but the day comes when a beer and a nap sounds better. (Hard to believe that too, I know)

It's fun figuring this out. The real secret to these conflicting 'needs' is, wait for it, Two boats. That 'fun' boat could maybe be carried on the cat or could be a 2nd boat of some size. What it won't be, is One Ring, I mean, Boat, to rule them all...

Keep us posted.

 

[mpenman]

One, is part time cruising vs full time liveaboard, only home, type cruising. The 2nd is ability to single hand or short hand.

To me, this pretty much rules out anything 50' and up.

I politely don't agree. Some 50ft+ boats are easier to manage than most production cats less than 50 feet and are way, way safer and way, way more comfortable. They're also way, way more friendly in big seas, especially if run single handedly.

The key is reefing setup and overall sail management.

Sailing in open ocean with consistent 25+ knots and the seas that accompany it, and only a couple, means you'll take boat quality (and length) as well as simplicity.

Let's think unimaran........Beowulf, Route 66.....to name a few.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Have you looked at Dazcat?

They have been working on new design currently, the Ocean Cruiser 55
https://www.multihullcentre.com/dazcat-ocean-cruiser/

They are also good at tweaking their designs to fit individual needs. They have a Dazcat 1495 currently sailing around the world that was modified to be wheel chair accessible
https://instagram.com/sv.artemis?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Yes I have. If Apollo was still for sale, I would have looked at it .
Dazcats are in the same category as Marsaudon Composites. They are not on the short list but I have not ruled them out. If one came up, I would probably look at it. They are rare beasts. They err towards racing.

 

[Zonker]

Nothing says you only have to have 2 tenders....

I totally agree that marketing of these big boats is nowhere the same as perception for performance/quality etc.

And I agree that 50+ is getting pretty big to singlehand (if that's the plan)

 

[Veeger]

I politely don't agree. Some 50ft+ boats are easier to manage than most production cats less than 50 feet and are way, way safer and way, way more comfortable. They're also way, way more friendly in big seas, especially if run single handedly.

The key is reefing setup and overall sail management.

Sailing in open ocean with consistent 25+ knots and the seas that accompany it, and only a couple, means you'll take boat quality (and length) as well as simplicity.

Let's think unimaran........Beowulf, Route 66.....to name a few.

Fair enough,yes, larger boats can be singlehanded without too much extra hassle. I did add the caveat that this CAN be done. My point however, is that handling sails on passage by oneself is not the only thing that happens when one is singlehanding. Docking, anchoring, are two actions where singlehanding becomes more challenging. More steps, higher sail, sheet, anchor loads, etc, all begin to mitigate against Ease of singlehanding. Where does one draw the line. I've discovered that while I pride myself on having the skill and strength to handle a larger boat, the enjoyment factor starts to diminish in doing it by myself. It suddenly seems to become easier to just not leave today, just not shift to a better anchorage, just not make that sail change or shake out that reef quite so fast. But then, I'm not a Type A and often describe myself as a lazy sailor. YMMV. I suspect that the OP will need to learn this on his own at his own pace. It took me several boats over a 15 year time frame to come to this conclusion. Pushing another year or two to 70 probably helps...

 

[Mambo Kings]

I’ve seen you drive a viper in big breeze. Make sure you get something stable and reef early

Hiding behind a sock eh Jeff? I see you.

We really missed you at the Worlds in Perth. 20 knots was moderate and the locals only got the bit between their teeth when the doctor called in the afternoon with 25 knots average and gusts of 28. Full on. The Monkey would have been grinning.

Anyway......you know you want me to pull the trigger on this because you want in. Cash in some of those chips and get the HH and we will cruise in company....you know you want to. BUT...no racing. Seriously, we are going cruising. I'm bringing Timbo. We need to get him out of the house.

Oh....and I'm putting four Vipers in a container from Palma next week. As new. 12 days in the water. Shall I put your name on one of them? We bought them from a pandemic induced seller. Sail around the world in a multihull, then fly to Viper regattas. No regrets.

We miss you man. I have 2 regattas you would like.

 

[SailingTips.Ca]

Why a cat? Why not a performance-oriented trimaran like this?

2010 Marsaudon Composites Trimaran Trimaran for sale - YachtWorld

Find more information and images about the boat and contact the seller or search more boats for sale on YachtWorld.

www.yachtworld.com

 

[Veeger]

Fair enough,yes, larger boats can be singlehanded without too much extra hassle. I did add the caveat that this CAN be done. My point however, is that handling sails on passage by oneself is not the only thing that happens when one is singlehanding. Docking, anchoring, are two actions where singlehanding becomes more challenging. More steps, higher sail, sheet, anchor loads, etc, all begin to mitigate against Ease of singlehanding. Where does one draw the line. I've discovered that while I pride myself on having the skill and strength to handle a larger boat, the enjoyment factor starts to diminish in doing it by myself. It suddenly seems to become easier to just not leave today, just not shift to a better anchorage, just not make that sail change or shake out that reef quite so fast. But then, I'm not a Type A and often describe myself as a lazy sailor. YMMV. I suspect that the OP will need to learn this on his own at his own pace. It took me several boats over a 15 year time frame to come to this conclusion. Pushing another year or two to 70 probably helps...

I'm kinda laughing to/at myself here as I reread this. This fall I just bought the largest, heaviest boat I'll ever have owned. But, in my defense, I at least decreased it down to only 1 hull! I also added conveniences like a stern thruster and in mast furling along with a large main engine to make things easier and am more comfortable with the idea of turning the key for shorter light air moves, or longer for that matter. Water toys such as kayaks and maybe a sailing dinghy and the roll up inflatable are the way to get my other 'fixes'. (much like Zonker suggests above). I also don't expect to be cruising outside the PNW in the summer or Puget Sound in the winter and not alone either.

 

[usa169]

Well, I’ve already committed to a Balance 482. Del late this year.

cya in New Oreans?

 

[Mambo Kings]

I have the following design criteria:
upper 40's in length - to get volumes desired (&payload) without fat hulls

48' - 52' is about my sweet spot. Enough room to bring family and friends. But manageable for two people.

'boxy' cabinhouse - I want a lot of FLAT windows to look out of
fully covered aft deck - room fro solar above, & my derm doc has already had her ways with my skin

Agree on view from inside. Agree with extensive bimini....go forward if you want to lie in the sun. But I dont mind some place in the cockpit where I can look at the sails. I like looking at sails.

mainsheet travelor on back end of roof - really clears up back of deck area
helm positions at deck level, just behind house, no roof penetrations. All sheets at hand from deck. The pivoting helm posts look good for this

Ive posted my thoughts on helming positions. My preference is that at least one helming position has to be truly sheltered. I would also like a helming position that I can truly sail from.

full vertical headroom to get down into hulls - I'm 6'6" and several boats with blister cabins one had to turn around & back down into hulls. Not something desired to live aboard
galley up - visibility, ventilation, social access

Yes and yes.

moderate prod length - I want to fly the same sails off the windward bow if I need to get downwind & don't want to reach around powered up

Not sure if you mean moderately short because you will not fly an assym/big head sail or moderately long so you can fly an assym. I would like moderately long. Many of my friends and family are competent sailors. I will carry at least one powered up large headsail in my inventory

I don't mind going to the mast to reef etc, not necessary to have all lines led aft. Maybe first reef only
daggerboards thru a very small keel - just enuff to take the ground carefully

I like the small skeg like keel + dagger board set up on the Daz cats . But it not common so I cant make it an essential criteria

shaft drive prop - I'll sacrifice a tiny bit of performance to get the simplicity & low maintenance of shafts

Again not make or break but I prefer shaft drive.

heads forward in bows - not high use, & helps keep weight out
I don't want seating for hordes - just 6 bodies. The rest can eat out back
big nav table/office desk
caBLE steering - all the other methods are too dead feeling
no self tacking jib - unless the track is recessed & goes much further outboard. No cruiser is going to short tack . engines do that.

Self tacking jib is high on my priority list. I would almost say it is a key criteria.

ONE level deck - couple of steps up from transom into aft deck, big doors, all same level thru house

Most of the modern cats have one level decks. I dont mind a few steps up from the transon to gain good bridge deck height but I want to keep the boom reasonably low.

Even the performance boats have shifted towards big sliding doors to create a single space combining saloon and cockpit. I think this is because the you tubers want it and the marketing types are telling the designers they need it. I notice that the Balance 526 has recently widened its doors and done away with a really nice looking structural beam to meet that perceived need.

I confess I don't like the patio doors look. I like a good sized opening but I also like the nautical aesthetic of watertight doors. See criteria #3 on my list.

Of the cats I've studied:

HH - mostly good, but too much interior cover paneling thru out. I much prefer smooth hull interior for most of interior. Look at pics of the 60' boat above. But 44 is too short, 52 a bit big
Kinetics - same. Don't know if you could talk them into simplifying
Balance - again close, but not enuff. Berman is over opinionated & his views are gospel. I'd steal the hull & deck concepts, tho
Gunboat - I'm not racing this
Almost all of the older designs - deck house too small & rounded, no interior volume. Too many step up/down cockpit/salon levels

It doesnt sound like you've found the right boat for you yet. Of the above....the Balance is on my short list. The HH hovers on the horizon but is probably not my boat. Kinetics and Gunboat are out for reasons above.

 

[Zonker]

Notice the type of 2nd toy on the foredeck = Viper

 

[Mambo Kings]

Well, I’ve already committed to a Balance 482. Del late this year.

cya in New Oreans?

Holy shit man. I had no idea. Well done. I'm excited. Lets do this!

I found have a boat I like a lot. Nearly new. Change of plans for the owner I am going to put a bid in tomorrow. Ill let you know. This could be interesting.

I plan to be at NOLA. This will not be a serious entry on my part but too many friends are going to be there.....and it is NOLA.

 

[Mambo Kings]

The interior saloon is something only a Hollywood producer could like. Have 2 close friends over for dinner and sex on the leather loungy seat/bed thing to starboard.

Maybe I'm just projecting...

Nothing against sex on couches......but the brown leather couch would have to go.

I liked that it glided along very nicely in 6 knots of breeze. I should have mentioned that one of the reasons for heading to two hulls is that I want to be sailing in 6 knots and not motoring.

Seriously it's an interesting boat. Spartan, light, well rigged from what I can see, lots of money into the sails. Has tillers and a protected wheel steering station.

Only downside is maybe the higher (4200 hrs) on the engines.

Couple of other downsides but certainly an interesting thoroughbred.