Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[Mambo Kings]

It's kinda funny, but Zonker has obviously sailed or touched a large number of boats. Way too knowledgeable about the things that matter. I would call him first quite frankly.

After seeing the crap I see on a way too frequent basis I feel it imperative to comment.

You mention many boats on your list and you mention Chris White's boats. I have owned a few of Chris's boats so my bias is obviously there. There are some GB boats I love and there are some I would not touch with a 10ft pole. I will tell you that the 66 is the best looking catamaran ever designed. Sexiest damn boat ever. That being said there are some 66's that I would not own.

I also admire the Gunboat 66. For example I really like the Cockpit Saloon interchange. However it is not my boat.

Talk with Shayne Young about your options and what he thinks about each of those boats. Call him, don't email. He'll tell you what to look for. He'll tell you straight too.

I do not know who Shane Young is. I shall google the name.

Many, many, many boats have serious build quality issues. No one wants to address or admit this because people buy a boat based on a certain price. This means that the boat is built to that price, not to a certain quality. Many think that China, Taiwan, South Africa are cheaper and better than the US, but I don't believe that to be true.

Of your list and further options you mentioned, I'd only take the Balance 526. That simple. Phil and Jonathan are world class in this arena.

The Slyder has slid off the list. I had someone take a look at it for me.
That leaves the Balance (South African), Outremer (French) and the C-Cat (Italian) on the short list . If anyone thinks either of those builders has build quality issues, please PM me soonest..

You mentioned the Gunboats being race boats, but I'd argue that a good cruising cat can be raced and raced well. GB's are fast but put the same amount of canvas on a GB and CW boat and I'll put real money in telling you who will be first. That however should not be your priority.

I have striven to make that not a priority.

If you want outside helm positions ala the Outremer, GB, HH, then you don't have kids or a wife. They'll tell you that there is no way they are doing a watch sitting out there on the side of the boat where you can fall off if you're not paying attention in the middle of the night in 25+knts wind and 10 ft seas.

Hence my post on helm positions. I think I am clear on what I like. None of my family are going sitting on a watch on tillers in the middle of the night in 10 knot seas.......and nor am I. I happen to think that a secure protected , (preferably inside) helm position does not exclude also having an outside helm position .

Not one for too many personal details but I do have a wonderful son. Part of the reason for "seizing the moment" is that we have a window of opportunity to sail together. He graduates from college in May. He will likely eventually find someone special and have his own family.....but for various reasons this is a good time for him to sail with me. I also have two brothers. with lots of nieces and nephews. Their wives will probably enjoy a cat more than a Boreal and that has affected my thinking. The brothers will sail everything and anything at all times of the night in all kinds of seas.....but there will be parts of the voyage we envisage as a family affair with cousins and uncles and aunts hanging out. There will be other parts where the crew can enjoy a regime that pushes harder.

Yeah. yeah, you can see the sails better and it's a better helm position.......the French are the best offshore sailors in the world, but I can tell you that Charles and Frank sail from the inside on Gitana!!! You will too, but don't quote me, just buy me a plate of french fries.

I will also experiment with cameras. However I would like to buy you a plate of french fries an a bottle of redwine and pick your brains.

I'd talk with owners that own these boats and I would also talk with the paid pros that manage these boats. Don't talk with the yards. Talk with the owners about 'REAL' after sales support when things don't work. I've seen outright delam's on far too many boats. I've seen bog on a boat that would make an illicit car repair company cringe.

Dont be shy. Im here for the real scoop/

Personally, some of the expedition boats built in aluminum are way better options than many cats.........and I'm a multi-hull bigot.

Go sail the boats first. I mean do 1,000 miles on each of these boats first and then make a decision........

Its not easy to arrange those opportunities. Im not sure I have time. So Im reaching out to people who have done 1,000s of miles

If you're serious about one of these boats and you're buying used then you're talking 750k +.

I am serious and I think you probably know what is needed to get into a good quality boat.

If you are thinking new, then you're most probably 2.5-3.5+MM new if you're thinking about a Balance. Let's agree that there are 60-80k man hours in each of these boats.

You're doing a lot of name dropping here,

You might have dropped more names in one post than I have mentioned in the entire thread. But that is cool with me because you are hooked up in the multihull scene and Im here to pik up any wisdom offered.

so ask that dude who sailed that red Outremer if the ORC57 is better than a HH!!! I'm sure he'll give the skinny on a phone call. Ask him about a CW boat and if the forward cockpit is really a firehose when sailing. Then call my boss (ala the wife) and ask her opinion. She has 40k opinionated miles behind her..........oh and she's now biased too.

Sounds like I should go straight to the oracle.

Frankly the real issue is tenders. I'm trying to convince her that Russel's rowing tender is the way to go. She's okay with one, so long as it's on the upper davits and only I use it.........give it time, I'll show her the real value!!!!!

Ahhh, so finally we come to the real issue. Truth be told I havent given any thought to the tender which shows how naive I really am.

Ever so gently, I want to push back on earlier posters who are slapping their backs and chuckling about how much I will learn once I start cruising. Yes, this is a new chapter in my life , but I have more than a few miles under my keel. Every chapter is new. This will be my first multihull blue water boat.

As posted above I am going to pitch an offer tomorrow. We will see where it takes me.

 

[jmh2002]

Ahhh, so finally we come to the real issue. Truth be told I havent given any thought to the tender which shows how naive I really am.

You will note that I made particular mention of it in my original post about the Etincelle 60 because having the right tender for your intended cruising is a VERY important factor.

...enough payload capability without affecting performance, ability to carry a large tender and outboard safe and high on davits (14ft RIB currently), etc, etc.

As some people often say, your boat is your home, and your tender is your car. Buying the wrong tender, or not being able to carry the right one, can make cruising life miserable.

Note for example that @mpenman has TWO tenders, both on davits, because he has kids, and otherwise they could be off doing stuff with his only 'car', leaving him and his wife stuck onboard.

So something that you should consider, and should be asking about for all these various boats, is what is the maximum length tender that can be carried, and even more importantly, what is the maximum weight tender (all up weight, so plus outboard, and fuel, and dinghy anchor, etc, etc - fully loaded) that the davits can safely carry.

Some of the davits on the some of the boats don't really look 'sufficient' - eg: on the Marsaudons (much as I like their boats otherwise). But to be fair, they were never intended to carry a big heavy cruising tender in the first place.

 

[Mambo Kings]

You will note that I made particular mention of it in my original post about the Etincelle 60 because having the right tender for your intended cruising is a VERY important factor.



As some people often say, your boat is your home, and your tender is your car. Buying the wrong tender, or not being able to carry the right one, can make cruising life miserable.

Note that for example that @mpenman has TWO tenders, both on davits, because he has kids, and otherwise they could be off doing stuff with his only 'car', leaving him and his wife stuck onboard.

So something that you should consider, and should be asking about for all these various boats, is what is the maximum length tender that can be carried, and even more importantly, what is the maximum weight tender (all up weight, so plus outboard, and fuel, and dinghy anchor, etc, etc - fully loaded) that the davits can safely carry.

Some of the davits on the some of the boats don't really look 'sufficient' - eg: on the Marsaudons (much as I like their boats otherwise). But to be fair, they were never intended to carry a big heavy cruising tender in the first place.

Damn good advice.

 

[Zonker]

I like my tender to be:

- not too big (14' RIB with center console and a 4 stroke 25HP isn't exactly "drag up the beach")
- not too small (8' inflatables are wet in a chop)
- as light as possible (see point #1)
- capable of planing with full crew aboard and some groceries

My first long distance 30' mono we used a nesting 11' dinghy I designed. I did lots of rowing with it. Eventually we succumbed and bought a 3.5 HP outboard which was more than enough. Still rowed it, but less when we were anchored a long way from shore/dock/destination

Our 40' cat started with a 10' planing plywood dinghy I designed. It was rugged when bashing against a rough concrete pier with rusty rebar sticking out, but didn't ride as comfortably in a chop. When it got stole in Australia we switched to a 10' RIB and were generally more satisfied, except for inevitable pinhole leaks due to wear and tear.

There is a reason the long term cruising fleet has sort of settled on a 10' RIB with a 8-15 HP outboard as the "typical" dinghy. It satisfies the needs of 90% of the people out there and has few drawbacks.

 

[Tomfl]

RANT ALERT

SNIP

Some of the davits on the some of the boats don't really look 'sufficient' - eg: on the Marsaudons (much as I like their boats otherwise). But to be fair, they were never intended to carry a big heavy cruising tender in the first place.

This is one of my pet peeves. Unless a boat is designed from the ground up to hang a hundred or more pounds swinging maybe six feet off the water line you are asking for trouble. Double the weight and the spaghetti really starts to hit the fan. First off you will wind up dragging your ass and a boat designed to sail on a given water line will be sailing on an altered water line.

Not saying a Seawind like I own should be your choice but I do like the fact that it was designed with the idea of davits on the arches. There are some other features of Seawinds I like. Mine has been modified by removing the conventional head and installing a composting head. Combined with the outboards mounted close to amidships that allow the boat to spin in it's own length means no shaft, struts, prop, or zincs; a bit OK in my book. I also like the dual steering stations that are semi enclosed and I can zip in the Eisenglass panels to provide at least some protection. The bimini also has zippered flaps above the steering stations I can roll up so I can see the main sail. Of course lines lead to the steering stations.

As an aside while I do have an autopilot I often wind up simply trimming the sails and on many courses (sometimes I have to alter five degrees or so) and the boat tracks like a freight train. This is something I consider mandatory, the ability to get the boat to sail a course (or close to a course) by trimming the sails. Not to mention when using an autopilot if the boat is some what able to hold a course the wear and tear, not to mention power consumption, is greatly reduced.

I would also point out that a lot of these things can only be determined by time sailing the boat.

 

[Keith]

ill just leave this here, we need some boat pics in this thread..

One of my favorite 48' designs.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2006-gunboat-48-8473024/

 

[jmh2002]

RANT ALERT

This is one of my pet peeves. Unless a boat is designed from the ground up to hang a hundred or more pounds swinging maybe six feet off the water line you are asking for trouble. Double the weight and the spaghetti really starts to hit the fan. First off you will wind up dragging your ass and a boat designed to sail on a given water line will be sailing on an altered water line.

Not a rant at all, but an absolutely true and correct statement, and something to make people new to cruising (or new to this type of cruising / boats) fully aware of.

Cruising boats should be designed to carry cruising equipment - properly. Dinghies, toys, anchors, chain, fuel, water, etc, etc.

And performance cruising multihulls need even more focus on getting this right, since the effects are much more amplified.

As you said, the boat should be designed from the ground up around these cruising features. That's being forgotten a little bit now with some performance boats.

And as you rightly pointed out this is not only about strong enough davits, but also enough hull and bouyancy back there to support this too - without adversely affecting the sailing characteristics of the boat.

That why when I look at a design like the Etincelle 60, old Outremer 55, etc - I don't see wasted hull length - instead I see a safe contained space for the dinghy when sailing offshore, and enough hull and bouyancy to support it.

Along with multiple other benefits too of course.

I really don't like these modern 'chopped off' transoms where the davits and the dinghy then hang out in free space over the sea.

I guess it's ok - until it's not...

 

[steelmadesteamer]

Bigger one (55 ft) and well above Your budget, also far away from You (Southern Hemisphere), but below 10 tons empty with 1.01m clearance and 164m2 upwind sails area.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Here's an extra photo of the Etincelle 60 that you might like. Not only tillers (in addition to the wheel steering), but a whole bank of instruments at the tillers too! Someone really like to sail that boat at some point in it's history...

View attachment 564714

I just looked at the listing. That is the boat owned by the F-boat racers. That is one sweet ride. I had a walk through in Georgetown. The lady skipper and her husband had no problem sailing it, they’ve had that boat for quite awhile

 

[Wess]

Good luck w offer. Just tell me it ain’t a Balance!

 

[loop]

I think I like the idea of a centerboard. One of the things I liked about the Garcia and Boreal monohulls was going very shallow and even going aground. If you hit something at night with a centerboard, I find myself wondering if less goes wrong than with a dagger board.

The builders that (to my knowledge) tried centerboards quickly walked away again, for good reason. Thinking Gunboat, JFA, ...

 

[loop]

This is a hell of a step for a first cruising boat. Since it sounds like you have the funds I would try to find any of these boats available to charter. Won't be easy to find but worth it to get some sea time.

You could try registering your interest with the builders. They, or their customers, might have need for delivery crew, or an extra hand on a long ocean leg.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

the only leaner I’ve ever thought, ‘I’d sail that,’ is a Garcia Passoa 47

 

[Waynemarlow]

Leaners are great if you're keen sailors, my wife just hates the leaning part, she thinks cats are just tolerable until the next mooring.

 

[mpenman]

I like my tender to be:

- not too big (14' RIB with center console and a 4 stroke 25HP isn't exactly "drag up the beach")
- not too small (8' inflatables are wet in a chop)
- as light as possible (see point #1)
- capable of planing with full crew aboard and some groceries

There is a reason the long term cruising fleet has sort of settled on a 10' RIB with a 8-15 HP outboard as the "typical" dinghy. It satisfies the needs of 90% of the people out there and has few drawbacks.

Replaced my 360 highfield with a ocTender 350 (sailing edition). I like it.
Lower dinghy is a highfield 390.
I think that the Zodiac's planed better. Also damn kids keeping growing so that may be my issue.
Both have 15hp yamaha 2 strokes. Can fix that engine with my eyes closed.
Something about a rowing dinghy that really rows makes you feel like a sailor.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Good luck w offer. Just tell me it ain’t a Balance!

I made my offer. Subject to my flying to inspect the boat on January 9th and a survey.
However the boat has received an accepted offer. I will keep looking. There are 2 other boats I have requested information on.

The two brokers I have been talking to are optimistic that there will be a number of post pandemic boats coming to the market...boats bought in a flurry of enthusiasm during the pandemic but not getting a lot of sailing time.

I have taken the Slyder off the short list
I have added the Outremer 45 (which is actually 48 feet) and 4x to the list.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Bigger one (55 ft) and well above Your budget, also far away from You (Southern Hemisphere), but below 10 tons empty with 1.01m clearance and 164m2 upwind sails area.

View attachment 564735

You don't say what it is.

The rendering suggests it is vaporware at the moment vs a boat. I think manageability would be the issue.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Rereading thru the thread. I’d love that lounge if for no other reason than the watch bunk. The leather, not so much

 

[Mambo Kings]

It's fun figuring this out. The real secret to these conflicting 'needs' is, wait for it, Two boats. That 'fun' boat could maybe be carried on the cat or could be a 2nd boat of some size. What it won't be, is One Ring, I mean, Boat, to rule them all...

Keep us posted.

I have figured that out.
In my mind the needs of a racing boat and cruising boat are so conflicted that owning two boats provides a better experience, costs considerably less and is less work.

That does not mean that a long distance performance cruising boat cannot provide joy while underway.

 

[USA 007]

Take a look at a Conser 47 if you can find one. I've done a lot of miles on one in both race and delivery mode. In shorthanded/delivery mode - 12-14 knots was comfortable. In race mode, 20+ was sustainable for hours at a time.