Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[jmh2002]

Looking at the race in question above, I can’t find the elapsed times for the two cats involved to work out what their average or Base Speed was for the race, to see if their elapsed time difference %age is similar to their Base Speed difference %age.

Here's the official data:

Leaderboard – Overall - Cape2RioRace

Final Results – Cape2Rio 2023

cape2riorace.com

The page was very slow to load for me so here is the actual image too:

And here is a thread with a little more general info about the Balance and the Outremer in that race:

Cape to Rio 2023

seems to be very little hype about this, both locally and abroad. Due to covid it coincided with the St Helena race this year, but not sure how many boats would have done both. doesn't seem like champagne downwind conditions for this edition, yet still quite a few retirements pulled into St...

forums.sailinganarchy.com

 

[Sidecar]

So the Balance 526 did the race in ~453 hrs and the Outremer did it in ~481 hrs. That is a ~6.2% difference without going into all the circumstances of the race for each.

The difference in their Base Speeds is ~5.3%

 

[jmh2002]

So the Balance 526 did the race in ~453 hrs and the Outremer did it in ~481 hrs. That is a ~6.2% difference without going into all the circumstances of the race for each.

The difference in their Base Speeds is ~5.3%

In the Cape2Rio thread there was also this extra info, for what it's worth:

Just some extra details...The Outremer had a crew of 6, the Balance had a crew of 9. The Balance finish 29 hours ahead and sailed an additional 161 nautical miles to do so even though the Outremer was the boat favored to win (it was handicapped owning the Balance 12 hours at the finish). The Balance also weighed in over 4,000 pounds heavier than the Outremer, not including the larger crew and all their gear.

 

[Sidecar]

Thanks, but not worth going deeper. I have seen enough huge winning margins over 60 odd years of racing, even in one design fleets, to know that the results of one race, is unlikely to be a true indicator of anything.

 

[jmh2002]

Agreed, I also made a post in the other thread suggesting some other factors to take into account too.

Things are often not as clear cut as they first appear:

I made the comment in another thread that I wondered if the Outremer, supposedly stripped for racing, would be able to be sailed to it's potential in this event?

Not trying to take anything away from the Balance (in fact maybe the opposite in this case) but it's one thing to have a fast boat (by it's rating) and another thing to sail it to this rating, over an extended period, across a large ocean.

- it may be that 9 vs 6 crew helped with this
- it may be that the Balance, although more in cruising trim than the Outremer, was easier to extract performance from
- it may be that the Balance is also a very fast boat (in fact we know it is)

So there are a lot of different factors at play.

But certainly on ocean crossings, either racing or cruising, having a boat that enables you to more easily keep the average performance up is very important.

 

[Sidecar]

I recommend that you take them for what they are worth. A rough indication, nothing more.

That’s ~ why ~ I ~ use ~ descriptors ~ like “indicative”, “fag packet”, “ball park” and “rough“.

The rating systems also differentiate differently for situations like your beach cat vs condo cat scenario.

Texel won’t rate them together at all, they use different formulas for each. (Texel also rates cats as slightly slower than tris BTW).

MOCRA applies an headroom/accommodation factor, to help weed out beach/sports multihulls.

OMR stacks the base formula in favour of heavier Displ/Length multihulls.

FWIW, below is a MOCRA certificate for an Outremer 51.2. Can’t find one for the Balance, but I can see differences between the Outremer website and the MOCRA certificate. Base Speed as per the MOCRA certificate measurements is ~ 12.0 knots.

MOCRA Rating - Aventureiro 4

Aventureiro 4

sites.google.com

 

[Dogfish]

I think all you are highlighting is the problem with trying to find a fair rating system to race under. They are all compromises, given enough wind the Balance will be faster, it's only in the lighter winds that the Outremer would have a edge, so if they don't experience enough light conditions they are toast and while I have not studied the race in detail I am guessing this is exactly what happened.
When you race under rating systems, you can often predict who will win given the wind and sea state on the race day. Having said all that it's still fun to play around with the numbers comparing boats thats for sure and despite realising the short comings I obviously had to check my boat with Sidecars " fag packet " calculation. I will say " condo cats " can be suprisingly fast when it's windy though.

 

[ol70]

I think all you are highlighting is the problem with trying to find a fair rating system to race under. They are all compromises, given enough wind the Balance will be faster, it's only in the lighter winds that the Outremer would have a edge, so if they don't experience enough light conditions they are toast and while I have not studied the race in detail I am guessing this is exactly what happened.
When you race under rating systems, you can often predict who will win given the wind and sea state on the race day. Having said all that it's still fun to play around with the numbers comparing boats thats for sure and despite realising the short comings I obviously had to check my boat with Sidecars " fag packet " calculation. I will say " condo cats " can be suprisingly fast when it's windy though.

The only thing I’d add to the statement above is that this was the slowest Cape2Rio race on record because of extremely light winds so the Outremer should technically have had an even greater advantage.

 

[ol70]

Offshore racing for you. Even if it was the same boat.
So no point in spending silly amounts of money on a Potentially faster boat for cruising.
I would give up speed for some small comforts.
Being a cruising boat you can pick your weather and time.
A good boat well sailed and crewed any day over a fast boat.

Anyone who has stood onboard an Outremer 51 and a Balance 526 takes about 10 seconds to realize how much more comfortable and spacious it is for a cruising couple/family. The great part about the 526 is you don’t have to make any of the comfort sacrifices you do with an Outremer and you still have a respectably quick boat. It’s at a significantly different price point as well so that needs be factored in, as you get what you pay for & boats are no exception.

 

[Dogfish]

The only thing I’d add to the statement above is that this was the slowest Cape2Rio race on record because of extremely light winds so the Outremer should technically have had an even greater advantage.

Well that just shows you how complex it really is. The Balance obviously sailed the better race, many a fast boat has ended up parking themselves in a wind hole only to lose the race. If you are just sailing as a couple it's worth remembering these are big beasts and if things do go pear shaped you will be in a world of trouble, the loads involved are huge. As everything gets bigger and more complex there is a lot to be said for keeping things nice and simple.

 

[ol70]

Well that just shows you how complex it really is. The Balance obviously sailed the better race, many a fast boat has ended up parking themselves in a wind hole only to lose the race. If you are just sailing as a couple it's worth remembering these are big beasts and if things do go pear shaped you will be in a world of trouble, the loads involved are huge. As everything gets bigger and more complex there is a lot to be said for keeping things nice and simple.

Absolutely, that’s why after sailing both of these cats it was clear the Balance was set up better for shorthanded sailing as a couple. Both are excellent choices and at the top of the world cruisers food chain though as the 51 was my original choice (not the wife’s which is why we thankfully kept looking) until we were able to experience the Balance.

 

[CapDave]

If you are just sailing as a couple WITH FEW SKILLS AND LITTLE EXPERIENCE it's worth remembering these are bigGER beasts THAN AN OPTI and if things do go pear shaped you will be in a world of trouble THAT YOUTUBE CAN'T HELP YOU WITH, the loads involved are huge, THOUGH THE DECK HARDWARE IS SIZED TO MATCH THEM. As everything gets bigger and more complex there is a lot to be said for keeping things nice and simple. HAVING MORE MONEY.

FIFY

 

[mpenman]

what people says a boat weighs vs what it actually weighs can be two totally different numbers.
I now the Cape Town to Rio was an actual race, but many time offshore, prudence is required to keep the crew and boat moving well.

I coulda used @CapDave on the helm docking in Shelter Bay a few days ago. 20 knots, about 10 feet of beam clearance down the fairway and no room for error. Crikey, marina's give me the willies. Already helped two mono's by bumping them off with the dinghy whilst they were docking.

 

[ol70]

what people says a boat weighs vs what it actually weighs can be two totally different numbers.
I now the Cape Town to Rio was an actual race, but many time offshore, prudence is required to keep the crew and boat moving well.

I coulda used @CapDave on the helm docking in Shelter Bay a few days ago. 20 knots, about 10 feet of beam clearance down the fairway and no room for error. Crikey, marina's give me the willies. Already helped two mono's by bumping them off with the dinghy whilst they were docking.

Truer words have never been spoken! The yard that builds the 526, Nexus, has the finished weight as spec'd in the build contract, not sure if Outremer does the same or not. With regards to the Cape2Rio race, the skipper of the 526 Norhi actually hired a crane on-site to get an accurate measurement. That's a big part of how the handicap of the Outremer 51 owing 12 hours at the finish was established. The Outremer skipper even inspected the bilges to make sure there was not any water or hidden lead lol, he even drove the 9 hours across South Africa to visit the Nexus factory and review how the boats were constructed.

If anyone thinks the competitive spirit between the two boats and skippers wasn't there or they both were not giving it their all, that's simply not the case. I do think that with as light of winds as they had, the race could have gone either way if one boat made the wrong move and got stuck in a hole without wind.

 

[Dogfish]

Nobody is knocking your choice of the Balance over the Outremer they are both nice boats. We are really talking about realities of life afloat and the choices you have to end up making, speed is just one part of that calculation. You will rearly sail at 100 percent of your boats capability, thats just reality. Ocean passages are a lottery it's hard to draw any firm conclusions from them, and some people are just better sailors than others. The Balance is obviously the boat for you and a very good boat it is.

 

[Wess]

what people says a boat weighs vs what it actually weighs can be two totally different numbers.
I now the Cape Town to Rio was an actual race, but many time offshore, prudence is required to keep the crew and boat moving well.

I coulda used @CapDave on the helm docking in Shelter Bay a few days ago. 20 knots, about 10 feet of beam clearance down the fairway and no room for error. Crikey, marina's give me the willies. Already helped two mono's by bumping them off with the dinghy whilst they were docking.

You know that is a really good point I don't think raised prior on this thread. So many of these big boats have paid crew and the like such that they are not really truly ma and pa double-handed cruisers. But if that is what you will be - and so @Mambo Kings claims - then lets talk the reality of docking. Because you gonna have to. And it will be tough when the trades are blowing no matter how good you are and tougher yet with just two. So why do I mention this... because its kinda surprising how few of these boat actually have a true practical and functional rub rail. Because if you really are ma and pa-ing it you gonna need one. You are eventually gonna lay on a piling rotate around it and pull on in. And with one on the helm and the other tending lines there aint a 3rd to manage a bumper on that piling. You gonna want - you gonna need - a truly robust, practical and functional rub rail. End rant LOL!

 

[ol70]

Nobody is knocking your choice of the Balance over the Outremer they are both nice boats. We are really talking about realities of life afloat and the choices you have to end up making, speed is just one part of that calculation. You will rearly sail at 100 percent of your boats capability, thats just reality. Ocean passages are a lottery it's hard to draw any firm conclusions from them, and some people are just better sailors than others. The Balance is obviously the boat for you and a very good boat it is.

Totally agree, I'm simply pointing out inaccuracies that people keep throwing out there, even though I appear to be the only person on the chat that has personally sailed both of these boats and spent serious time aboard opening hatches/looking under the hood so to speak and really understanding what the differences are. It's all good though, mostly I just like talking about boats : ) and think both are excellent choices.

 

[CapDave]

what people says a boat weighs vs what it actually weighs can be two totally different numbers.
I now the Cape Town to Rio was an actual race, but many time offshore, prudence is required to keep the crew and boat moving well.

I coulda used @CapDave on the helm docking in Shelter Bay a few days ago. 20 knots, about 10 feet of beam clearance down the fairway and no room for error. Crikey, marina's give me the willies. Already helped two mono's by bumping them off with the dinghy whilst they were docking.

Ha - we just hauled the boat at North Sound Marina in Antigua, concrete haulout slip with no wood bits, or any padding, or anything, <32' wide for our 28'. And it's broadside to the wind, was blowing 16-18 the day we went in. Put both daggers down a couple feet and drove it in at 2.5 knots. Our fenders are 12" and we were nearly touching both sides. First time I've been nervous around a dock in a long time. Launching on Thursday, forecast 20-22.

 

[CapDave]

 

[CapDave]

You gonna want - you gonna need - a truly robust, practical and functional rub rail. End rant LOL!

Standard Chris White design feature!

Though after four years/15K miles we haven't used it much to speak of. Most of the "inside" slips where you might want to spring around a piling or something are too narrow anyway. We go to the dock as seldom as humanly possible, hate being on the dock, but we usually get a T-head or similar pretty easy, because that's where the boat fits. Stern to is also fairly easy.

I've been looking at videos of the Faroes and Lofotens where we're going this summer and where it's often too deep to anchor. A lot of the recreational docks look tight for us, we're going to end up on some commercial/fishboat piers at least some of the time. We're going to need more fenders, and some fender boards!