Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[Dogfish]

My builder was way behind schedule, easily distracted and often surfing instead of building the boat. Used to catch up with him in the morning when he was brushing his teeth I only had to look in the mirror and their was bold as brass just standing there brushing his bloody teeth. Build buy it's never without it's issues as far as I can tell sorry about your issues.

 

[CapDave]

In other news.....regarding progress on the purchase of Uhuru.
I have frustrating news. I hesitated to post this because those of you who know me , know that I do not like to badmouth people behind their back, that I conduct myself in the most ethical way I can ,but expect the people I deal with to conduct themselves in the same way.

I have done a good amount of travel to look at boats and I have done a lot of research. I owe a huge thank you to everyone on this thread for pushing me up the learning curve so quickly.

I had called about an effectively new Outermer 51 which became available after doing very few miles. It would have been perfect but someone else was already well advanced with an accepted offer. I did not want to be the person in the anchorage who screwed over someone else's deal. I was available if it fell through but kept looking.

I made a fair offer on a reasonably new 2019 Outremer 51. It checked all the boxes. The offer was countered by the seller. The counter was reasonable. There was some dickering to do with tax (The boat is based in Europe with potential for the seller to get a VAT refund on a cancelled lease if it was sold EX VAT. I have a house in Spain so some relevance). The seller revised his counter to an EXVAT price. I agreed to buy it EX VAT and accepted his Ex VAT counter. I would respond the same day to any questions . The Seller would always take 3 or more days. The broker was super helpful and went out of his way to bring the deal to a conclusion.

We accepted the sellers counter.

The deal was fair. It was slightly less than the new boat had sold for. It was more than another 2019 with almost identical features that has sold 2 months earlier with more ocean miles under the hulls. One could argue it was $15k more than a hard nosed buyer would pay...but it was the boat I wanted in a location I liked and I am ready to start this chapter.

No word from the seller for 4 days ....and then yesterday he comes back and says no deal. He is back at his asking price.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Perhaps the moral here is dont try and buy a boat from someone going through a divorce. But I expect people to conduct themselves with integrity

I cannot tell you how much time I spent on this and how disappointed I am.

I had exactly the same experience trying to buy a boat in MA once, bad taste indeed.

Something about boat transactions seems to bring out the worst in people.

Happily there are a number of O51s for sale, and likely more coming too......

 

[CapDave]

In reality it's not worth the headache and lawyer's fees to make the other party comply.

Exactly right....

 

[Mambo Kings]

Is there a cultural difference thing, i.e. it is socially acceptable in parts of Europe to back out of large asset purchase deals after committing, vs. the stigma / bad juju of doing so in a US deal? Mambo, did the broker comment at all about this? (and I can certainly f'off if that's too personal)
Condolences on the baby wipes.

No I do not think it is a cultural thing. I have witnessed European people in my working life who have kept their word in even the most trying circumstances. The ethos of "my word is my bond" is thankfully still to be found in many parts of the word.

It has been my experience that "trust" is the most powerful asset you can bring to the table in your working life and your personal life. Everything gets done faster with trust. Its more fun as well.

Occasionally trust is misplaced and perhaps there is a short term cost. But if one bad experience tarnishes my ability to trust others and earn trust then I am the loser. So I let karma take care of the other guy and I move on.

I am going skiing to clear my head and I will take up the hunt when I return. Dammit though I was looking forward to casting off at the end of this month.

 

[Mambo Kings]

My builder was way behind schedule, easily distracted and often surfing instead of building the boat. Used to catch up with him in the morning when he was brushing his teeth I only had to look in the mirror and their was bold as brass just standing there brushing his bloody teeth. Build buy it's never without it's issues as far as I can tell sorry about your issues.

It is hard to blame the builder when the customer was just as lackadaisical, taking just as much time off to surf as the builder.

On the bright side, when the customer felt a sense of urgency, the builder was responsive.

British dental hygiene is not a high hurdle.

 

[Dogfish]

Crikey, the state of our teeth is the least of our problems.

 

[steelmadesteamer]

there are a number of O51s for sale, and likely more coming too......

Sometimes this makes me wonder
As well as that "reinforced concrete wall" between the Owners (Sellers) and possible Buyers.

 

[eastern motors]

Perhaps the moral here is dont try and buy a boat from someone going through a divorce. But I expect people to conduct themselves with integrity

Make sure the wife's lawyer knows about your offer!

I have no idea how to do this in Europe. Pretty easy in US.

 

[CapDave]

OK - reviving this thread. Back on the topic of actual passage times as opposed to tossing out hero numbers.....

We just sailed Jolly Harbor to No Name Harbor - 6 days 1 hour, 1,245 miles for 8.6 knots. Four onboard. Never had the true wind ahead of the beam once. 0 engine hours. 30 hours with the A2 up.

But those hero numbers....since it was the last trip for the old A2 we pushed it; had a Goldilocks slot with true winds 22-24, touching 28, with smallish waves dead astern. We sailed 40 miles in 3 hours, going over 17 knots on four separate occasions, it was really fun. Then the sea state changed and we couldn't keep the kite stable so put it away - and it survived!

Tried to upload a short vid, but told "file is too large". Sorry.

 

[Wess]

OK - reviving this thread. Back on the topic of actual passage times as opposed to tossing out hero numbers.....

We just sailed Jolly Harbor to No Name Harbor - 6 days 1 hour, 1,245 miles for 8.6 knots. Four onboard. Never had the true wind ahead of the beam once. 0 engine hours. 30 hours with the A2 up.

But those hero numbers....since it was the last trip for the old A2 we pushed it; had a Goldilocks slot with true winds 22-24, touching 28, with smallish waves dead astern. We sailed 40 miles in 3 hours, going over 17 knots on four separate occasions, it was really fun. Then the sea state changed and we couldn't keep the kite stable so put it away - and it survived!

Tried to upload a short vid, but told "file is too large". Sorry.

How many aboard?

 

[Mambo Kings]

How many aboard?

Four? According to the post.

 

[Wess]

Good grief, yup 4 it was. Blind as a bat am I. Thanks.

 

[CapDave]

Instruments a little hard to see, but that's 15.7 SOG, 13.5 AWS @ 110 AWA

 

[Ravenswing]

OK - reviving this thread. Back on the topic of actual passage times as opposed to tossing out hero numbers.....

We just sailed Jolly Harbor to No Name Harbor - 6 days 1 hour, 1,245 miles for 8.6 knots. Four onboard. Never had the true wind ahead of the beam once. 0 engine hours. 30 hours with the A2 up.

But those hero numbers....since it was the last trip for the old A2 we pushed it; had a Goldilocks slot with true winds 22-24, touching 28, with smallish waves dead astern. We sailed 40 miles in 3 hours, going over 17 knots on four separate occasions, it was really fun. Then the sea state changed and we couldn't keep the kite stable so put it away - and it survived!

Tried to upload a short vid, but told "file is too large". Sorry.

Isn’t it amazing that across the big range of ‘performance’ multis we talk about on this forum, when we take them 500+ miles, it seems to always come back to an 8-9kt overall average for a good brisk trip. Ocean seems to not really care if it’s a $150k or $1.5mil boat

 

[jmh2002]

But those hero numbers....since it was the last trip for the old A2 we pushed it; had a Goldilocks slot with true winds 22-24, touching 28, with smallish waves dead astern. We sailed 40 miles in 3 hours, going over 17 knots on four separate occasions, it was really fun. Then the sea state changed and we couldn't keep the kite stable so put it away - and it survived!

@CapDave Are you able to tack a furling (head)sail to the windward bow instead in that situation where conditions or prudence mean the kite should come down but the true wind is aft and you still need/want sail area?

Or, to put the question another way, what sail combination did you switch to when you dropped the kite, and how much did that affect your average speed?

Nice passage. Thanks for the details. Cheers

 

[jmh2002]

Isn’t it amazing that across the big range of ‘performance’ multis we talk about on this forum, when we take them 500+ miles, it seems to always come back to an 8-9kt overall average for a good brisk trip. Ocean seems to not really care if it’s a $150k or $1.5mil boat

I guess there were other times during the 6 days when the breeze was lighter than the 'hero conditions' and the boatspeed average was much less?

But you're right, it's tough to get over the hump and average 10kn or more for an extended period (so needing to see 13-15kn boatspeed most of the time).

 

[CapDave]

@CapDave Are you able to tack a furling (head)sail to the windward bow instead in that situation where conditions or prudence mean the kite should come down but the true wind is aft and you still need/want sail area?

Or, to put the question another way, what sail combination did you switch to when you dropped the kite, and how much did that affect your average speed?

Nice passage. Thanks for the details. Cheers

The genoa is ~700sq ft, the A2 is 2,000. It would be nice to have a gear in between.

We have looked at trying to rig a top down furler but it's a lot harder than it might seem and we haven't carried through with it. For example, think about the sheet lead to the windward bow trying to get a good furl on it. Yeah, no. Then you'd have to move the tack of the sail, while flying, to the leeward bow and get enough tension on it to get a good furl, I don't think so. The other answer would be to put on a bowsprit like the A72 has, but I can only do so many big projects/year.

When we downshifted to the genoa we dropped about 3 knots on average in those higher TWS conditions, but critically we had to head 10 degrees higher to keep it filled, a noticeable secondary impact on VMG.

 

[CapDave]

Isn’t it amazing that across the big range of ‘performance’ multis we talk about on this forum, when we take them 500+ miles, it seems to always come back to an 8-9kt overall average for a good brisk trip.

I disagree - because nobody but me is posting real passage numbers, so we have no idea. And it depends which passage, upwind, downwind, variables.....

Ocean seems to not really care if it’s a $150k or $1.5mil boat

Well the ocean may not care, but no way I'm living full time on a $150K 57' cat. Is there such a thing??

 

[jmh2002]

The genoa is ~700sq ft, the A2 is 2,000. It would be nice to have a gear in between.

...

When we downshifted to the genoa we dropped about 3 knots on average in those higher TWS conditions, but critically we had to head 10 degrees higher to keep it filled, a noticeable secondary impact on VMG.

That's what I was thinking, about what the gear in between might be on your boat, and also regarding keeping the genoa filled at that angle if that was the only downshift option.

Losing 3kn is a lot, but as you said, it's not as easy to solve as it first seems (hence my question).

We have looked at trying to rig a top down furler but it's a lot harder than it might seem and we haven't carried through with it. For example, think about the sheet lead to the windward bow trying to get a good furl on it. Yeah, no. Then you'd have to move the tack of the sail, while flying, to the leeward bow and get enough tension on it to get a good furl, I don't think so. The other answer would be to put on a bowsprit like the A72 has, but I can only do so many big projects/year.

I've been thinking about the same issue, depending on the geometry of the boat, bows, forestay(s), etc.

Have you considered a snatch block/twing/barber hauler, etc (somewhere on the leeward bow) to help with this issue when furling from the windward bow? One is probably needed to get the right sheet lead anyway when flying from the windward bow, but as you said trying to get a good furl is another matter again. Maybe the geometry just doesn't work.

Back to the centre line / bowsprit might end up being best, but isn't so helpful when a squall comes through and you just want to furl up quickly and run on the main alone until it passes, as it's usually quite some exercise to get the flying sail back to the centre line and correctly tensioned in the first place, let alone in the middle of a squall.

Also I appreciate that the geometry and forestay setup on the Atlantic 57 is less helpful for this too (most other cruising cats don't have the genoa on the wire bridle in front of the forward cross beam, and in line with the bows), so at that point it becomes more about general thinking perhaps, rather than specific to your boat.

Running deeper on a big cat can be a weak point from a cruising sail selection point of view. Some people like to drop the main and run on a kite or headsail alone (less chafe too) but I'm less of a fan of this setup since you then have no ability to blanket the sail if things go wrong, which they sometimes do of course.

Thanks again, and yes a big thumbs up for real world data and real world scenarios from your side

 

[CapDave]

Have you considered a snatch block/twing/barber hauler, etc (somewhere on the leeward bow) to help with this issue when furling from the windward bow?

Even if you could get the right angle (doubtful), the sheet would still chafe the furled genoa. Might get away with it once or twice, but beyond that you'd chafe the sun cover off.

Bowsprit and give up the TWA slice is the answer, but maybe in 2024? Putting on the lithium batteries this year, and then going cruising....