Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[Dogfish]

Looks like a good place to post my idea see what you all think. I am going for a canting bowsprit and one downwind (upwind very light winds ) sail on a top down furler, sort of structual luff, code 0 gennaker screecher thing. I am really lazy and means you can go really deep by adjusting the luff tension and canting the sprit.

 

[Kenny Dumas]

How bout a staysail in a sock on the weather bow?

 

[Kenny Dumas]

Anything you can do to balance the forces and eliminate rudder drag is a huge win.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Looks like a good place to post my idea see what you all think. I am going for a canting bowsprit and one downwind (upwind very light winds ) sail on a top down furler, sort of structual luff, code 0 gennaker screecher thing. I am really lazy and means you can go really deep by adjusting the luff tension and canting the sprit.

Pics, diagrams, sketches, back of napkin?

 

[Dogfish]

I am committed to the plan now don't know if it warrants a diagram it's just a bowsprit which cants 45 degrees to windward. It's a attempt to cut down on the downwind sails, without loosing to much preformance and making everything easy to handle. I like the idea of a spinnaker down to each bow thats more complication and I think only has a very small advantage over the canted sail time will tell. I will keep people posted as to how it works out will not be until the summer that I find out. The structual issues are a bit of a challenge though fingers crossed.

 

[Kenny Dumas]

Doesn’t Gugeon’s Strings have a setup like that?

 

[Sidecar]

^^^^ Russell Brown’s G32 cat ” Incognito” has a pivoting sprit:

 

[Wess]

So @CapDave... I am maybe completely misunderstanding your need here. But sounds like you are looking for a step down from an A2 asymmetrical chute… but wanting to run deep angles given you see to want to shift the tack to windward.

A decade or so back we had an F27. And for different reasons we started playing with symmetrical chutes. Yea on the formula version of the boat with a big squaretop main. I could burn through lots of them and recut and tweak. And because we wanted to leave the furled screacher hoisted but not have chafe problems…

Anyway we ended up smaller runner w big belly symmetrical chute. Sheeted to the bows. Ignoring ratings it was a huge success. Better VMG and deep angles. Gybes were easy peasy. No tacking the tack or shifting a sprit or complicated engineering. Just an oddly cut chute that should not have worked but did. Debating exploring same idea for our bigger tri now.

Not sure this has relevance for your situation…

 

[jmh2002]

To be fair, it was me that raised the question of any possibility of moving the tack to windward as I've been thinking about the same issue for longer cruising passages (and he mentioned, yes he had thought about it, but that it was not as simple as it seems).

Part of the issue that @CapDave raised was that "...the sea state changed and we couldn't keep the kite stable so put it away"

So we were speaking about a more stable sail as an alternative to the free flying A2 - something with more of a fixed luff.

The problem is that the geometry doesn't work very well, especially to furl the sail, and especially on the Atlantic 57 which has a masthead hoist fixed genoa on a wire bridle in front of the forward cross beam (where most boats would have a removable Code sail on a bowsprit).

 

[MultiThom]

I fooled around with symspins and asyms barbered windward on two boats. Even the slower of the two boats (hobie getaway) generated too much apparent wind to fly well barbered very far off centerline. I eventually found that it was better (for my boats) to just build a big fat asymspin with an SMG near 90%. Deep running and flew stable. With a top down furler with a decent separate torque rope, it was easily single handed (for my size boats). But, top down has its own issues (for me anyway). It was fun playing with the systems and I learned a lot, but currently I'm happy flying 83% SMG bottom up (but with separate semi rigid torque rope) and drop to deck when not in use.

 

[Dogfish]

Thanks everybody plenty of food for thought ! Spent many a hour puzzling over this one, I see the cute small symetric as a real contender. I appreciate all the imput thats been given and it shows it's something everybody thinks about. I think it's pretty dependant on the boat and the sail design. The top down would be retained in the sail it's mainly to have a tight furl if it's left up as bottom ups sometimes are a bit loose towards the head. Like a lot of things with boats it's never a very straight forward solution and I am a great one for going around in circles that for sure.

 

[he b gb]

I reckon you’re going in the right direction with the symmetrical spin on the swiveling prodder, assy’s and (definitely) straight luffed screechers by design prefer being flown central and don’t perform very well brought around to windward.

 

[CapDave]

To be fair, it was me that raised the question of any possibility of moving the tack to windward as I've been thinking about the same issue for longer cruising passages (and he mentioned, yes he had thought about it, but that it was not as simple as it seems).

Part of the issue that @CapDave raised was that "...the sea state changed and we couldn't keep the kite stable so put it away"

So we were speaking about a more stable sail as an alternative to the free flying A2 - something with more of a fixed luff.

The problem is that the geometry doesn't work very well, especially to furl the sail, and especially on the Atlantic 57 which has a masthead hoist fixed genoa on a wire bridle in front of the forward cross beam (where most boats would have a removable Code sail on a bowsprit).

This is the A72 bowsprit. Again, no bandwidth for this project this year, but I’m going to ask CW what he thinks about putting a version of this on my A57 - maybe a ‘24 project. I would keep my A2 and tack it to either bow or in between as conditions dictate, but then have a Code 0 or similar furled sail on the end of the sprit. I’ve thought about the symmetrical idea, and it’s a maybe, but has most of the issues that the A2 does for handling and etc. Just a little easier for deep downwind and gybing.

 

[CapDave]

 

[Rantifarian]

I reckon you’re going in the right direction with the symmetrical spin on the swiveling prodder, assy’s and (definitely) straight luffed screechers by design prefer being flown central and don’t perform very well brought around to windward.

A deeper cut assy definitely works well with a rotating pole, I have done it with success on a few sports boats with rotating poles. We also pull the tack of our assy to windward on a 38' schionning to run deeper for better vmg in some conditions

 

[CapDave]

I'm looking for my blue water cruising boat.

About me:

I'm perceived as a racing sailor in monohulls. I do enjoy racing. Two time Masters world champion in the international 21' sport boat class, Viper 640 and national Champion in 3 different classes. But my enjoyment of racing comes from a love of sailing.

Completely separate from racing, I love cruising and remote places. I grew up in Kenya. I have hiked around Patagonia and Nepal. I'm making plans to do the Malawi raid on a multihull with Alex Schon. So the next chapter in my life is to own and live part time aboard a blue water cruising boat.....probably 6 months of the year.

As I set about choosing my boat, I started with the idea of a expedition go-anywhere mono hull (Boreal, Allures, Garcia).....with 5 important criteria:

1. I want to be able to see the outdoors when I am indoors.. Some kind of pilot house boat. I don't want to descend into a cave when its cold outside. I want to enjoy the view when I am in the boat.

2. I am NOT going to race this boat but I want performance because I want to be able to cover distance in a timely way.
Importantly, the boat has to be a "joy to sail". I don't want to drive a cab around the world or have the autohelm steer 24/7. I am cruising around the world in a sailboat because I love helming sailboats. I understand that for long distance cruising I will use the autohelm a lot. But I want a boat that on a beautiful afternoon, with a perfect wave set and a narrow reach , I cannot resist turning off the autohelm and taking the helm because the feel of the boat is so beautiful.
I am not going to race this boat. I am keeping my racing separate from my cruising....so dont recommend a Gunboat. Its not on the list. But it has to be fast because I want to get to interesting places and cover a lot of miles and I want a boat that is truly a joy to sail.

3. The boat has to be seaworthy and protected. When I am faced with unavoidable bad weather on the open ocean, I want to be confident in my craft. If choosing between the vertical beam that ensures the boat is stiff and seaworthy in 55 knots and following seas or a perfect wide opening between saloon and cockpit for serving cocktails......I choose the beam.

4. The boat has to be manageable single handed. My family and my wonderful friends are going to join me for most parts of my voyage but I have greater independence than they have and there will be times when I want to sail on my own. This is important!

5. The boat has to be beautiful inside and out. I am not stopping racing. Race boats are spartan . My cruising boat will not be spartan.

So inevitably criteria 1 and 2 have shifted the search to mutihulls. First to the Dragonfly (beautiful workmanship and a joy to sail but probably not a live aboard) then to blue water performance cats.

The current shortlist includes:

Outremer 51
Balance 482 or 526
Slyder 49
C-Cat 48 (56 is probably too big) . This is on the list because I really like the two helm positions...more on that later.

Hovering on the outskirts but probably not going to make the short list:

• Some fantastic Chris White designs: If I purchased new, this would be a custom build project. I dont have enough cruising multi-hull experience to supervise and specify that project. There is nothing on the used market that captures me. In buying one of the established manufacturers I am buying all the accumulated experience and refinement of hundreds of thousands of miles of previous owners.
• The ORC 50 from Marsaudon Composites. It really doesn't fit my criteria because it leans too far towards the spartan racing orientated end of the spectrum. But I just cannot help myself from admiring beautifully executed boats from a yard with such a stellar reputation, and yes I enjoy a tiller. The build quality will be impeccable. A 50 foot boat with an empty weight that really is 8.6 tons because they weigh everything they build down to the gram....and can be filled with 5 tonnes of equipment, fittings and gear and still go like shit off a shovel. I have not been able to put the red line through it...but nor has it made the short list because the interiors are not lined (nor should they be). I think it will feel spartan for my guests and I worry it will be noisy (and I want to be able to visit cold places).....but God what a boat. The price/value is also attractive.
• HH Catamarans. I don't need the all carbon hull because I'm not racing. But Seth wants to come Viper racing with me so I'm leaving the window open for him to persuade me.

Gunboats are not on the list. I dont have that kind of folding money or the ego.

Have at it.......tell me what I am missing and what are the pros and cons of my short list. I am a good listener and I will reply to your posts.

In my next post I will list my perceieved pros and cons of my short list. But I will let you go first, except I will talk about helming positions.

So how's the shopping going? Have you looked at the CW48 that came on the market?

Hope a bad buying experience hasn't deterred you...

 

[Mambo Kings]

So how's the shopping going? Have you looked at the CW48 that came on the market?

Hope a bad buying experience hasn't deterred you...

The experience has not deterred me. The experience and subsequent advice I have received from folks more familiar with the dark underbelly of yacht broking has adjusted my approach. I am resting in London having spent time looking at a boat in Europe. I will be on my way to looking at a boat in the Caribbean. Some family stuff in the meantime.

 

[Wess]

The experience has not deterred me. The experience and subsequent advice I have received from folks more familiar with the dark underbelly of yacht broking has adjusted my approach. I am resting in London having spent time looking at a boat in Europe. I will be on my way to looking at a boat in the Caribbean. Some family stuff in the meantime.

Wake up and smell the coffee LOL. Whenever you are talking about 6-7 figures for a toy (new or used) there is always a dark underbelly. Seriously, have a good lawyer, and insurance agent and everything will be fine!

 

[mpenman]

Wake up and smell the coffee LOL. Whenever you are talking about 6-7 figures for a toy (new or used) there is always a dark underbelly. Seriously, have a good lawyer, and insurance agent and everything will be fine!

Buy the right boat built in the right place.
Once you know the market it's actually only a very small select number of boats.
Neither a lawyer nor insurance agent will help on an AS IS contract.

 

[Wess]

Buy the right boat built in the right place.
Once you know the market it's actually only a very small select number of boats.
Neither a lawyer nor insurance agent will help on an AS IS contract.

Not sure I agree. Have purchased new build and a true as is where is used boat. Very very different prices (% of value) and contracts and yea I worked closely with lawyer and insurance broker on both and am very glad I did (for both of those extremes). I ain’t saying honest people don’t exists in this business but with respect they seem few and far between (or maybe I am just a glass half empty kinda guy).