Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[Zonker]

That's a lot of capital in fancy toys. I hope their production is big enough to support that. There is a reason a lot of builders just farm out CNC plugs...

 

[jmh2002]

That's a lot of capital in fancy toys. I hope their production is big enough to support that. There is a reason a lot of builders just farm out CNC plugs...

Yes, but their parent / associated companies are in related businesses so perhaps they are able to spread the risk beyond just a few catamarans per year.

About Us - Cure Marine

In the boat building division, Cure Composites have been responsible for some of Australia’s best known performance multihulls including “Zero” (Schionning G-Force 1800 SSS) and “Chill Pill” (Schionning G-Force 1500).

curemarine.com.au

 

[Zonker]

Good to know. When you have fancy machines like that you want them running 24/7 if possible.

Of course Australia has very high labour rates and incredibly long smoke breaks so if it replaces 10 workers it might pay for itself over a week or two.

 

[mpenman]

Solar Panels: Solara PowerM. Walkable, very durable, had them on my previous 57 and they still look brand new after 5 years. Solbian are lighter but definitely not as durable. You have to put high temp foam on the roof to truly protect from no wind days when the panels get hot. IT DOES NOT make the cabin hotter in fact it's been my experience that the heat is absorbed by the aluminum support plate. No better panel out there.

Energy generation should be all solar. No reason for a genset, once again IMHO. One more frigging engine, lines and crap........heavy too.

Forward cockpit like @Capt Dave has is IMHO the best setup for cruising. He's pimped his boat to perfection.

You want to build a boat in the US ACC is one helluva company. Boat was sailable from day one. Only issues I had were not ACC issues. I don't think that there is that big a delta in price (in fact they may be similar) but the build quality is simply off the charts better. No offense to John or Mark at Balance, but the fellas at ACC are better, but I would have zero hesitation with a Balance cat built by Jonathan. BTW that man is one frigging seriously good surfer. Most probably the best big wave surfer in the world at his time.

 

[Dogfish]

Surfing legends in SA. Looks like a pretty happy motivated workforce, normally means you end up with good product in the end.

 

[mpenman]

Surfing legends in SA. Looks like a pretty happy motivated workforce, normally means you end up with good product in the end.

Yup, those boys would drop in on stuff I would not even watch from the shore. I'll add one more thing. ACC is only capable of building a boat every 2 years currently. Balance is building most probably 5 times that per year. IMHO that's harder to do. I really like the Balance boats. It's a strong well built boat.

 

[Wess]

OK @Mambo Kings, I agree re the joys of this process (sarcasm). Out searching and maybe have you equaled or topped on being burned by flakes meter. We took the time off work, wife and I traveled to see a boat we know well. Day before we leave we get told oh and BTW the boat is on a mooring and all the electronics are removed etc... OK we say no problem we don't need to sail, we know the boat well, I am only interested in overall condition and ergonomics for a 3rd party who will be cruising with us but has limited mobility." Perfect says the owner. Today 2 hours from appointment we are ready and get text...

Him: um, the tide is out I can't launch the dinghy.

Us: We are standing on the town dock and it looks like a normal tide; we are confused.

Him: Well its blowing stink and concerned we might not be able to get back.

Us: Its a light 9 knots southerly breeze which will blow water in and there will be more water coming back... not less.

Him: Well its also kinda cold and the water temps are low.

Us: Yea we know we sailed another boat this morning but OK thanks for the head's up (thinking silently no shit its early Spring; thanks for wasting our time dickhead).

Us: Hello broker give us a call when you are serious about selling this and its on a dock so there are no excuses.

The funny thing is this was the #1 boat on the list for both wife and I. We had insurance lined up (we do for any boat we look at). We had full purchase price cash freed up (also always true). We had even talked to yard that had done most of the maintenance work on it and we had them lined up to do more/refit. The boat that was #1 on our list (it ain't no more) could have been sold before dinner. Yes I know about survey and for the right boat at right price we are willing to take a 6 figure risk (we have done it before).

Oh well. Life is too short to deal with flakes LOL!

Thank God we already own a boat the wife and I love.

PS - I know and respect the listing broker and he is solid. Don't think he realized till today what a flake the owner is. Wish he didn't learn it on my dime but is what it is.

PPS - Be careful out there. Unless it’s your forever boat bide your time. I think the market is going to get very very soft over next few years.

 

[Mambo Kings]

I;m back at my desk. I see there have been a good number of advice , discussion and rants in my absence.

It is all good stuff.

One of the more interesting discussions was about build quality.

At the top of the quality ladder, there is no doubt that there is a thrill about having a custom build by craftsmen at a shop like ACC. With the right designer, the finished boat will be exceptional. In Penman's case, he was already sailing a multihull and this was a project that he could relish and enjoy the planning and construction time. I would add Rockport Marine to that lost of custom builders that would be thrilling to wok with. Unfortunately, due to PPP, I dont have the luxury of time. I want to "go" soon.

However there is one interesting option that I am looking at. That is the option of taking on a manageable project. Good bones that need a refit. The hull and structure would be production boat quality. But the fixtures, fitting and much of the equipment would be customized by me working with a custom shop. I'm looking at 3-6 months. They say three months but they also say "We may be slow but we're expensive". I could live with that. It involves getting on another plane. I've locked it in sufficiently that it is worth the trip.

One rung above the custom build is the skilled builder who is building their own boat. When @Dogfish built his own cat', the quality standard was build as if your own life depended on it because.......

One rung below the custom builder is probably Balance. I agree that Balance is a notch above Outremer. One reason for that is that skilled craftsmen, laminators and cabinet makers are less expensive in Cape Province than they are in Provence. They both have to end up at the same price point.
So Outremer has to be efficient in hull production (Resin Infusion is more time efficient but not as weight efficient as hand laminators), cost conscious (polyester in places where Balance uses vinylester) and pick their spots where the cabinet finish matters (the visible quality is first class but when you reach behind the fittings, the Balance is lined or sanded, and you will sometimes find rough edges in the Outremer).
But......and this is a very important but......the quality of workmanship, and the stiffness of the hulls and boat in an Outremer is many rungs above the vast majority of production boats, both monohulls and multihulls. Both Balance and Outremer are dedicated to building Blue water performance catamarans.Both are passionately proud of their product and very close to their customers. Both stand behind their product, with a "no questions asked" approach to their warranty. There are several "build managers" and "surveyors" located close to Outremer who work for prospective owners during the build process and Outremer is happy to work with them and gives them complete access throughout the build. The best is a woman who is an international surveyor, lives in town and knows every millimeter of the Outermer build process . Again, I dont have time to build my own boat.

One further difference between Outremer and Balance, is that Balance is owned and managed by the founder who has a clear and forceful vision (and a great business model).....with two builders who are also owner/managers. Outremer is now part of a conglomerate. However on the factory floor, there is no doubting the passion of the workforce is still there. At the margin, I think the ownership of Balance helps the product , and I detect they refine the boat in a faster more responsive manner to sailor/customer feedback...but that is only an impression (no doubt reinforced by Phil's marketing prowess).

I dont have a view on HH although I have walked around the boat carefully. The eye for detail is not as sharp as when you are actually considering buying a boat.

Outremer and Balance are currently the two most successful "production" builders in this space and there is good reason for both of their success.

On the rungs below them are several boats I dont want to comment on for fear of being superficial. Some are great designs with less build quality. Some are terrific build quality without enough blue water experience incorporated in the design. Some are brilliant boats with great design and quality that have not built enough boats to be available on the market, except in rare instances.. Some are Aussie or British limited production runs which look really interesting but I dont know enough about them to contribute. None of them seem to be from the USA......how far down the ladder do I have to descend to find an American boat? Sad in a way.

 

[Mambo Kings]

OK @Mambo Kings, I agree re the joys of this process (sarcasm). Out searching and maybe have you equaled or topped on being burned by flakes meter.

The wrong reason to decline to buy a boat is because it is "difficult" to buy . It is better to buy a good boat from a difficult owner than buy a difficult boat from a helpful owner.

I had moderate success in my working life hiring talented people who were "difficult: to manage. I was always surprised (and pleased) that competitors seemed to shy away from difficult in favor of less talented.

Im looking for a talented boat. The boat will be with me for a decade. The former owner will not. If you and your wife love that boat, (and god knows you know what you like!), then dont give up so easy.

 

[Wess]

The wrong reason to decline to buy a boat is because it is "difficult" to buy . It is better to buy a good boat from a difficult owner than buy a difficult boat from a helpful owner.

I had moderate success in my working life hiring talented people who were "difficult: to manage. I was always surprised (and pleased) that competitors seemed to shy away from difficult in favor of less talented.

Im looking for a talented boat. The boat will be with me for a decade. The former owner will not. If you and your wife love that boat, (and god knows you know what you like!), then dont give up so easy.

Yea you are correct for sure in getting right boat from wrong owner vs wrong boat. And ha(!) we all know what we like (well the owners here at least). If you have owned a few big boats and crossed oceans I don't think you can help but have strong opinions about what you like and not in a boat. All that said I don't know if for this purchase - which is very situationally and time specific - I don't know if I have the bandwidth or timeline to deal with a difficult owner and process. Would be different if it was our fovever boat but this is a need it now for this kinda boat. Anyway was just funny how we ended up mirroring your earlier frustration with the process and people.

 

[steelmadesteamer]

Mambo Kings, if You do not need EU rules compliance, fly to Australia to get 2021 built 46-ft 7,500 kg empty, 0.95m clearance, 3 cabins, mid-galley, "closed" steering position, LAR mini keels (sorry!) ... @ just AUD 1.5M!

 

[ol70]

I;m back at my desk. I see there have been a good number of advice , discussion and rants in my absence.

It is all good stuff.

One of the more interesting discussions was about build quality.

At the top of the quality ladder, there is no doubt that there is a thrill about having a custom build by craftsmen at a shop like ACC. With the right designer, the finished boat will be exceptional. In Penman's case, he was already sailing a multihull and this was a project that he could relish and enjoy the planning and construction time. I would add Rockport Marine to that lost of custom builders that would be thrilling to wok with. Unfortunately, due to PPP, I dont have the luxury of time. I want to "go" soon.

However there is one interesting option that I am looking at. That is the option of taking on a manageable project. Good bones that need a refit. The hull and structure would be production boat quality. But the fixtures, fitting and much of the equipment would be customized by me working with a custom shop. I'm looking at 3-6 months. They say three months but they also say "We may be slow but we're expensive". I could live with that. It involves getting on another plane. I've locked it in sufficiently that it is worth the trip.

One rung above the custom build is the skilled builder who is building their own boat. When @Dogfish built his own cat', the quality standard was build as if your own life depended on it because.......

One rung below the custom builder is probably Balance. I agree that Balance is a notch above Outremer. One reason for that is that skilled craftsmen, laminators and cabinet makers are less expensive in Cape Province than they are in Provence. They both have to end up at the same price point.
So Outremer has to be efficient in hull production (Resin Infusion is more time efficient but not as weight efficient as hand laminators), cost conscious (polyester in places where Balance uses vinylester) and pick their spots where the cabinet finish matters (the visible quality is first class but when you reach behind the fittings, the Balance is lined or sanded, and you will sometimes find rough edges in the Outremer).
But......and this is a very important but......the quality of workmanship, and the stiffness of the hulls and boat in an Outremer is many rungs above the vast majority of production boats, both monohulls and multihulls. Both Balance and Outremer are dedicated to building Blue water performance catamarans.Both are passionately proud of their product and very close to their customers. Both stand behind their product, with a "no questions asked" approach to their warranty. There are several "build managers" and "surveyors" located close to Outremer who work for prospective owners during the build process and Outremer is happy to work with them and gives them complete access throughout the build. The best is a woman who is an international surveyor, lives in town and knows every millimeter of the Outermer build process . Again, I dont have time to build my own boat.

One further difference between Outremer and Balance, is that Balance is owned and managed by the founder who has a clear and forceful vision (and a great business model).....with two builders who are also owner/managers. Outremer is now part of a conglomerate. However on the factory floor, there is no doubting the passion of the workforce is still there. At the margin, I think the ownership of Balance helps the product , and I detect they refine the boat in a faster more responsive manner to sailor/customer feedback...but that is only an impression (no doubt reinforced by Phil's marketing prowess).

I dont have a view on HH although I have walked around the boat carefully. The eye for detail is not as sharp as when you are actually considering buying a boat.

Outremer and Balance are currently the two most successful "production" builders in this space and there is good reason for both of their success.

On the rungs below them are several boats I dont want to comment on for fear of being superficial. Some are great designs with less build quality. Some are terrific build quality without enough blue water experience incorporated in the design. Some are brilliant boats with great design and quality that have not built enough boats to be available on the market, except in rare instances.. Some are Aussie or British limited production runs which look really interesting but I dont know enough about them to contribute. None of them seem to be from the USA......how far down the ladder do I have to descend to find an American boat? Sad in a way.

Welcome back, I hope all is well!

The one thing that I would comment on your post as well as some of the other great ones previous to it, is that no boat manufacturer, type of boat, or the people working for the companies are without a few warts. These are all highly complex ecosystems in one of the harshest environments you can throw at them. There are going to be issues, lots of them over the years of ownership. The first two of a new boat will be way worse than years 3,4,5, & 6. But because even boats that have been sorted out, you just never know all of the details of how it got to where it is in its current state.

Keeping the boat and its systems as simply as possible has a direct correlation to your satisfaction level with the experience. This is something I remind myself of often!

Any of the boats/manufacturers mentioned can be great choices for a person's particular circumstances. My favorite sailing experience so by a wide margin has been aboard a crappy slow charter 46' monohull that everything was broken on, and the experience is what it's all about at the end of the day. (LOL, and it's just as important to know what you don't want on your next boat!)

 

[CapDave]

Good bones that need a refit. The hull and structure would be production boat quality. But the fixtures, fitting and much of the equipment would be customized by me working with a custom shop. I'm looking at 3-6 months. They say three months but they also say "We may be slow but we're expensive". I could live with that. It involves getting on another plane. I've locked it in sufficiently that it is worth the trip.

This makes me scared for you; the point you've made repeatedly is that you don't have time for a new build. I'd argue that reasoning extends to a major refit. What you're describing above is not 3-6 months, it's a year. The only way you knock it out in 6 months is if you hire the workers, they work full time for you, and you're the "GC" of the project. Very hard, and hard to find the talent too.

I guess it's possible you could have functionally the same thing with a contractor who commits in writing to how much labor he'll put on your project, but I've never seen that.

And let's talk money....you're at risk of putting a $1,000 saddle on a $100 pony here. If the result works for you and your cruising program maybe that's OK, but what you can sell the boat for down the road will be based mostly on the $100, not the $1,000.

And another caveat; these kinds of refits have a slippery slope to them where you start fixing stuff the original builders did wrong. This can be a bottomless pit, and why after one experience I promised myself I would never again refit a boat that didn't come from the known small handful of premier builders.

And there will be surprises. They will be to the downside.

Sorry......

 

[RandallStephens]

This makes me scared for you; the point you've made repeatedly is that you don't have time for a new build. I'd argue that reasoning extends to a major refit. What you're describing above is not 3-6 months, it's a year. The only way you knock it out in 6 months is if you hire the workers, they work full time for you, and you're the "GC" of the project. Very hard, and hard to find the talent too.

I guess it's possible you could have functionally the same thing with a contractor who commits in writing to how much labor he'll put on your project, but I've never seen that.

And let's talk money....you're at risk of putting a $1,000 saddle on a $100 pony here. If the result works for you and your cruising program maybe that's OK, but what you can sell the boat for down the road will be based mostly on the $100, not the $1,000.

And another caveat; these kinds of refits have a slippery slope to them where you start fixing stuff the original builders did wrong. This can be a bottomless pit, and why after one experience I promised myself I would never again refit a boat that didn't come from the known small handful of premier builders.

And there will be surprises. They will be to the downside.

Sorry......

Listen to this man!

I have high standards. Royal Huisman for sailing yachts, De Vries for motor yachts. Period. If CapDave’s supervised a Huisman build, that’s as good as it gets. You can’t get a better endorsement of one’s knowledge and insight re: world class, ne plus ultra build process (It was a sad day When Alice decided to sell the family business, but understandable.)

Doing a refit on an older than you’d originally envisioned boat from a quality yard though? Maybe, given the right boat.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Salt water is the least friendly environment we could possibly come up with for a boat, after fresh water.

It discovers flaws in the boat and it discovers flaws in the owner.

Which is why I always say you are buying two things when you buy a used boat.
1. You are buying a boat.
2. You are buying the care and maintenance of the previous owner.

Thus there are two types of used boat worth buying:
1. A boat from a reputable builder, designed by a reputable designer, with a known track record, good reputation, maintained in good condition where the survey finds no major flaws and....
2. Any boat where the existing owner is @CapDave

But don't let that go to his head.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Solar Panels: Solara PowerM. Walkable, very durable, had them on my previous 57 and they still look brand new after 5 years. Solbian are lighter but definitely not as durable. You have to put high temp foam on the roof to truly protect from no wind days when the panels get hot. IT DOES NOT make the cabin hotter in fact it's been my experience that the heat is absorbed by the aluminum support plate. No better panel out there.

Energy generation should be all solar. No reason for a genset, once again IMHO. One more frigging engine, lines and crap........heavy too.

Solid, concrete advice based on an owner's actual experience.

All the joking aside, that is what this thread is really about.

 

[giegs]

Are system components available such that they wouldn't interfere with a 3-6mo timeline? I suppose working with a yard would help, but that seems like it could result in some undesirable compromises being made to move the project along.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Solid, concrete advice based on an owner's actual experience.

All the joking aside, that is what this thread is really about.

I wish we could get Pierre of BioTrek to contribute to this thread. In terms of power storage and batteries I really think he is the most knowledgeable owner around. I might ping him.
After all, it is power storage systems and the software that controls them that paid for him and Lilly to cruise around the world in their multihull.

Here they are upgrading their solar panels, upgrading the alternators and inverters and once again another Fischer Panda failure...but Pierre sorted it out. Start at 2.50 to avoid meandering introduction and the systems upgrade finishes at around 11.50
But his real expertise is storage and Battery Management systems, and its interesting to listen to him again starting at 18.30.

He bought his alternator management system from Bruce Schwab in Maine.

Side note: we all remember Bruce as the guy who converted a classic vintage 10 sq meter into a single handed ocean racer (and currently has another project going on another thread on SA...) The 10 sq meter ended up with Dr. Tatersall in the BVI, Racing with Dr. Tatersall was a personal life highlight of mine...so its a small world)

 

[Mambo Kings]

This makes me scared for you; the point you've made repeatedly is that you don't have time for a new build. I'd argue that reasoning extends to a major refit. What you're describing above is not 3-6 months, it's a year.

Ive described it badly. Sorry.

 

[ol70]

Solar Panels: Solara PowerM. Walkable, very durable, had them on my previous 57 and they still look brand new after 5 years. Solbian are lighter but definitely not as durable. You have to put high temp foam on the roof to truly protect from no wind days when the panels get hot. IT DOES NOT make the cabin hotter in fact it's been my experience that the heat is absorbed by the aluminum support plate. No better panel out there.

Energy generation should be all solar. No reason for a genset, once again IMHO. One more frigging engine, lines and crap........heavy too.

I know this is a tough question because everyone's power consumption is unique, but we have our boat spec'd with 3.2 kW of fixed glass panel solar in elevated composite frames with individual controllers for shading, and a battery bank of 600 Ah at 48V (28.8 kWh), so with that hardware how close to running fully off of solar do you feel we could achieve (on a scale from 1-10 with 10 being completely autonomous)

We rarely use A/C unless in a marina hooked to shore power, maybe to cool the master hull off on the occasional night when it's unbearable...or the nights my wife tells me to turn it on. The boat will not have a generator but will be equipped with dual Integrel chargers to further mitigate the use of diesel and help with autonomy.

Thanks for you input!