Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[Tark1]

I;m back at my desk. I see there have been a good number of advice , discussion and rants in my absence.

It is all good stuff.

One of the more interesting discussions was about build quality.

At the top of the quality ladder, there is no doubt that there is a thrill about having a custom build by craftsmen at a shop like ACC. With the right designer, the finished boat will be exceptional. In Penman's case, he was already sailing a multihull and this was a project that he could relish and enjoy the planning and construction time. I would add Rockport Marine to that lost of custom builders that would be thrilling to wok with. Unfortunately, due to PPP, I dont have the luxury of time. I want to "go" soon.

However there is one interesting option that I am looking at. That is the option of taking on a manageable project. Good bones that need a refit. The hull and structure would be production boat quality. But the fixtures, fitting and much of the equipment would be customized by me working with a custom shop. I'm looking at 3-6 months. They say three months but they also say "We may be slow but we're expensive". I could live with that. It involves getting on another plane. I've locked it in sufficiently that it is worth the trip.

One rung above the custom build is the skilled builder who is building their own boat. When @Dogfish built his own cat', the quality standard was build as if your own life depended on it because.......

One rung below the custom builder is probably Balance. I agree that Balance is a notch above Outremer. One reason for that is that skilled craftsmen, laminators and cabinet makers are less expensive in Cape Province than they are in Provence. They both have to end up at the same price point.
So Outremer has to be efficient in hull production (Resin Infusion is more time efficient but not as weight efficient as hand laminators), cost conscious (polyester in places where Balance uses vinylester) and pick their spots where the cabinet finish matters (the visible quality is first class but when you reach behind the fittings, the Balance is lined or sanded, and you will sometimes find rough edges in the Outremer).
But......and this is a very important but......the quality of workmanship, and the stiffness of the hulls and boat in an Outremer is many rungs above the vast majority of production boats, both monohulls and multihulls. Both Balance and Outremer are dedicated to building Blue water performance catamarans.Both are passionately proud of their product and very close to their customers. Both stand behind their product, with a "no questions asked" approach to their warranty. There are several "build managers" and "surveyors" located close to Outremer who work for prospective owners during the build process and Outremer is happy to work with them and gives them complete access throughout the build. The best is a woman who is an international surveyor, lives in town and knows every millimeter of the Outermer build process . Again, I dont have time to build my own boat.

One further difference between Outremer and Balance, is that Balance is owned and managed by the founder who has a clear and forceful vision (and a great business model).....with two builders who are also owner/managers. Outremer is now part of a conglomerate. However on the factory floor, there is no doubting the passion of the workforce is still there. At the margin, I think the ownership of Balance helps the product , and I detect they refine the boat in a faster more responsive manner to sailor/customer feedback...but that is only an impression (no doubt reinforced by Phil's marketing prowess).

I dont have a view on HH although I have walked around the boat carefully. The eye for detail is not as sharp as when you are actually considering buying a boat.

Outremer and Balance are currently the two most successful "production" builders in this space and there is good reason for both of their success.

On the rungs below them are several boats I dont want to comment on for fear of being superficial. Some are great designs with less build quality. Some are terrific build quality without enough blue water experience incorporated in the design. Some are brilliant boats with great design and quality that have not built enough boats to be available on the market, except in rare instances.. Some are Aussie or British limited production runs which look really interesting but I dont know enough about them to contribute. None of them seem to be from the USA......how far down the ladder do I have to descend to find an American boat? Sad in a way.

Please explain how you are going to refit or even do minor work to a boat in 3-6 months? The way things are at the moment you may wait 3-6 months for anything you order.
More than once you have mentioned you are time restricted on this. That quite simply means comprimises. If I were in a hurry to get out there the last thing I would do is put a boat in a yard at the moment.
Choose the important things. Comprimise and get out there. Or wait for a new build to your specs.
Maybe you will have to run an engine to charge the batteries occasionally, maybe it wont be quite as fast as you wanted, still plenty fast.
Or you may get to the point where you could have ordered your dream boat and still be looking or waiting for your not dream boat in a yard.
If you are lucky enough to be in this situation don't let it pass.
I think you can put that in the rant file.

 

[jmh2002]

Antares Catamarans have posted up a new video which is bound to cause some controversy but also includes some useful discussion, data, and links.

I didn't want to derail other threads so I started a new topic with their video here:

Are Performance "Cruising" Catamarans Safe?

Are Performance "Cruising" Catamarans Safe?

Antares Catamarans have posted up a new video which is bound to cause some controversy but also includes some useful discussion, data, and links. I didn't want to derail other threads so I started a new topic with their video. Are Performance "Cruising" Catamarans Safe? Join us as we discuss...

forums.sailinganarchy.com

 

[jmh2002]

With reference to this thread, it does include specific data and discussion on these models:

Outremer 452
Balance 526
Balance 486
Gunboat 48
HH55

and a few other well known but less performance models.

NB: I think 'Outremer 452 refers to 45 MK2, ie the 48ft model
(given the length and sail area in the stats)

 

[ol70]

With reference to this thread, it does include specific data and discussion on these models:

Outremer 452
Balance 526
Balance 486
Gunboat 48
HH55

and a few other well known but less performance models.

NB: I think 'Outremer 452 refers to 45 MK2, ie the 48ft model
(given the length and sail area in the stats)

Thanks for the heads up on this video. Classic argument from a manufacturer of a great but dying brand of catamaran.

I love when these guys quote ARC results that’s a downwind sail with no upwind component to the race…where these other cats would get obliterated.

Also zero mention of light wind sailing ability and the fact that the majority of your time sailing will be in light winds.

This guy is a salesman creating his own marketing material by cherry picking data to rip on people’s marketing material.

There was another similar video made about 3 years ago about performance cars that was universally panned by people in the comments as total horse shit.

 

[jmh2002]

Maybe better to put those comments over in the other thread, where they can be argued discussed about there in order not to derail this thread too much

 

[jmh2002]

This video was posted over in a different thread:

Warranty and Travel Update & Our CROSSBEAM Mounts Are Cracking...

Yes it's a South African boat builder! No... don't panic, it's not Balance...

And apologies that it's not a performance cat either. But, maybe it is relevant in terms of some of the pitfalls that can occur when buying a brand new boat, even from a name brand, even with warranties, etc, etc. Once they have your money all bets are off.

As I said in the other thread, it's also a good reminder that buying a new boat doesn't mean that you avoid having any problems. In fact often it is quite the opposite. And as we already discussed earlier in this thread this applies to a basic charter spec boat like a Leopard, right up to superyachts costing tens of millions.

Caveat Emptor.

PS: I'm also surprised that even after they found all these structural problems they still decided to sail the boat across the Atlantic...

 

[Zonker]

Just shit construction basically. Unless there is a big backing plate embedded in that glasswork, those little backing plates are nice and thick but don't do much to spread the load.

But honestly, slack the forestay, unbolt the beam, get in there with a grinder and within 2 weeks you'd have it totally removed, re-laminated with 3x the thickness of glass, tapered way out into the hull, re-gelcoated, and back together.

(I was going to say 1 week but some people are slower than me)

 

[jmh2002]

Just shit construction basically. Unless there is a big backing plate embedded in that glasswork, those little backing plates are nice and thick but don't do much to spread the load.

Yes, agreed - but some people (buyers) just don't seem to know about some of this basic but important stuff.

But honestly, slack the forestay, unbolt the beam, get in there with a grinder and within 2 weeks you'd have it totally removed, re-laminated with 3x the thickness of glass, tapered way out into the hull, re-gelcoated, and back together.

(I was going to say 1 week but some people are slower than me)

Yes agreed again, and you're right that it could be sorted out relatively quickly and be much better than it ever was.

Or some people like Shane are even more crazy and think 'hey, aluminium and bolts are so passé - better if we just get rid of them' (8mins onwards he removes the old beam and starts cutting big holes in the bows...)

 

[Wess]

This is one of three by Pierre on Marine electrical systems.

I found this table very interesting

View attachment 581275

Thanks for posting that. Batts are likely the area I can make the largest comfort and sailing performance improvement on the boat (increased storage capacity and decreased weight) but I don’t understand the technology or risks so stick with old school tried and true (and heavy). I gotta do some reading and study up on this topic. Have a lot to learn it sounds like…

 

[Mambo Kings]

Thanks for posting that. Batts are likely the area I can make the largest comfort and sailing performance improvement on the boat (increased storage capacity and decreased weight) but I don’t understand the technology or risks so stick with old school tried and true (and heavy). I gotta do some reading and study up on this topic. Have a lot to learn it sounds like…

Storage capacity and weight are important on a boat.
Also, space ,longevity, maintenance and control.

Given the ugly chemistry and weight it is remarkable that the Lead Acid era lasted as long as it did. Electrical engineers and auto engineers forecast in 1935 that the lead acid battery would not be around in 10 years. Boy, were they wrong on that call. Battery casing and sealing continued to get better. Prospective new chemistry turned out to be blind alleys. The distribution of the charge among cells seems prehistorically simple , but effective. Battery technology research stalled because it was looking for a solution without a problem.

Then in the 1970s and 80s we truly began to need light, portable energy storage, Neccesity if the mother of invention, and battery research from 1958 got dusted off and in a series of innovative steps experimenting with different cathode materials and electrolytes , the lithium ion battery chemistry emerged. But it was not only chemistry which accounts for LiPo batteries in our boats today.
1. Advances in Chemistry
2. Advances in Battery Management Systems.

You are going to become very familiar with battery technology and risks because its not only your boat where you are going to install batteries but your home as well.

It is endearingly antiquated that something as sophisticated as our dwelling, laden with electrical devices and volatile power demand has a power management system that my grandfather would recognize. It is impossible to be specifying a modern cruising multihull's system today and not start to realize that one's home is a fossil.

The search for Uhuru has sharpened my understanding of the pace of change in generation, storage and electrical management systems. My home is next.

 

[Wess]

LOL I am a laggard compared to your early adopter approach. The gains in this area though seem so significant it might overcome my reluctance.

 

[socalrider]

LOL I am a laggard compared to your early adopter approach. The gains in this area though seem so significant it might overcome my reluctance.

Three years ago I put a new lead acid bank in my trawler. I was on the fence, but the LFP available then wasn't well tested & it was expensive. I was tempted even in an application where weight was irrelevant, but in the end went with flooded lead acid. If I'd had a catamaran I'd have probably bit the bullet & gone with LFP at 3x the cost.

Today? Absolute no brainer, even for weight insensitive applications. On a lightweight cat even more so. Almost the same cost per usable unit of storage, vastly better reliability, no need to worry about topping off with water, no issues with having them sit at partial state of charge... LFP is just plain better on every count, and can be found at price points not far from FLA.

 

[Dogfish]

I had ten good years from flooded lead acid now gone the LFP route. No topping up, no equalising and much lighter it's definately the way forward.

 

[Zonker]

I build a new carbon fiber/foam/glass mast box beam for my cat. About 800 deep x 300mm.

Took 1 day to bond it the hulls, inside and out.

Bow beams are usually pinned joints because then the beam can be lighter (and thus cheaper).

Bolted moment connections are stronger but more money. Virtually all the cheaper production cats go with this route, but most are a lot more robust than that on the inside.

 

[jmh2002]

Another timely video, even if most of us in this thread are probably aware of these various possible problems already.

It even discusses some of the same issues featured in the last posts, and again features Shane from YoungBarnacles.


SAVE YOUR MONEY! Problems to look for on a USED Catamaran

 

[mpenman]

Nick is finding out firsthand about build quality. He really did not know what he did not know until he went sailing on a performance boat with incredible build quality.
Now finding a boat that meets 'their' spec is not proving to be possible given their budget.

Shayne has pics that would make you wince and they're not from cheap boats.

If you're spending a million plus, cough up some cash and consult with someone like Shayne or @Zonker if he would give you some time. Even if it costs you 20k, it's free money.

 

[jmh2002]

Nick is finding out firsthand about build quality. He really did not know what he did not know until he went sailing on a performance boat with incredible build quality.
Now finding a boat that meets 'their' spec is not proving to be possible given their budget.

You may have created a monster...

 

[Dogfish]

It's like all things they are expensive for a reason, materials and labour. I have build a house and a boat. The boat took ten times longer particulary if you want to do the job properly. The temptation to cut corners is always there. Working on boats any bodge will come back to haunt you I am for ever sorting out some needless work caused by a lack of though or care in the first place. A production boat will not be in the same league as a semi-production or custom boat and the price point reflects that fact.

 

[ol70]

Nick is finding out firsthand about build quality. He really did not know what he did not know until he went sailing on a performance boat with incredible build quality.
Now finding a boat that meets 'their' spec is not proving to be possible given their budget.

Shayne has pics that would make you wince and they're not from cheap boats.

If you're spending a million plus, cough up some cash and consult with someone like Shayne or @Zonker if he would give you some time. Even if it costs you 20k, it's free money.

Yes, this is exactly what I encountered during my process. When I first started, in my mind I was hoping to spend around $1M or a little extra for a 50-ish foot cat with above average performance and quality. So basically an Outremer 51. When I sailed on a couple and lifted up her skirt, I was not that excited about what I experienced or saw. I liked a lot because that boat sails very well for what our needs would be but was left not being super excited about the prospect.

Damn does the rabbit hole get deep fast though when you actually want a higher level of quality, higher end construction materials like Carbon, S-Glass, epoxy, vinyl ester, etc. That's not even considering the sub systems like batteries/solar/rigging/sails/etc. To have a reputable yard build for you a new boat today in the 50' range with all the 'accouterments" you are looking at $2M for an absolute baseline, and even that is with compromises. Of course you can get by for less, and definitely can spend much more, but what Nick is looking for in the $700k range does not exist without a whole lot of baggage. I feel his pain, I'm just thankful that our budget allows us to solve a few of the constraints.

And also, two thumbs up on Shane from Young Barnacles, I've been chatting with him on our build and looking to come to an agreement for him to consult on the entire project because he will absolutely see things we don't. Definitely money that will be well spent on this level of investment that I'll be trusting my family's lives to for the next 2-20 years.

 

[CapDave]

Nick is looking for in the $700k range does not exist without a whole lot of baggage.

He should have sucked it up and paid $800K for Atlantic 55 Javelin.....

Edit - he still could, but I think pride is in the way.....