Ok I just want to flag something up. If somebody is going to supervise the build just make sure everybody is on the same page. You the supervisor and the builder need to agree on exactly what you expect, what spec your are building to etc. Otherwise it can be a very painful and unhappy time for all. It's expecting a Rolls when you are paying for a Ford, I am not suggesting that in this case but you get what I am trying to say.
Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.
- Thread starter Mambo Kings
- Start date
Ha. I agree YOUR supervisor/inspector is your representative and should have your interests at heart and understand what you are trying to achieve.
But, for the builder - honestly what you as the owner might write in the spec will be interpreted by the builder as the "easiest simple cheapest" way to do it sometimes.
I think a good representative should allow some give and take. I.e. trading off an item that that is painful for the builder for future goodwill down the track when they really need a little or no cost change.
example: Builder says you specified brand X circuit breakers and I can't get them for a reasonable amount. Can I substitute brand Y and here are the specs for both so you can compare and approve them? (get YOUR handy electrician to look over the tripping curves if you are not an expert). You agree and say "OK but you owe me one"
In a month when you want the dishwasher changed out to a better model because you just wrote "dishwasher" in the spec, and builder is shopping at Home Despot, the builder is going to look more kindly on the change and not screw you ESPECIALLY if you remind them of last month's circuit breaker issue.
example: In another case we were designing and supervising building a 45 knot x 63' cabin cruiser. Looked like a regular 28 knot boat but went very fast. Everything had to be light. Boat was build in aluminum. We discussed weight of fairing with the builder as we were writing the spec.
The clause was "how fair does the aluminum hull have to be BEFORE application of fairing compound" i.e. we were trying to minimize weight of fairing due to a distorted hull plating.
We wrote something like "Hull shall be fair prior to application of fairing compound. "Fair" means that you can place a 1m long batten anywhere along the hull and there shall be no gap big enough to slide a #1 paper clip under the batten". This is actually hard to achieve on a thin skinned alum. boat.
Builder agreed that yes, they could agree to what we proposed. Everybody was happy because we all understood what was possible for them to achieve. We hadn't written in the impossible. i.e. "No fairing compound shall be used"
More lessons learned: Vague clauses like "a top quality yacht finish" are really hard to enforce. If you attach example photographs of other boats fittings, interiors etc. you find acceptable then builder will have a better chance of understanding what you expect so there are no hurt feelings or surprises.
Specs should be as detailed as possible Have the fabric choices, floor covering, wall treatment, etc etc all spelled out with as much detail as possible. You can't have too much detail usually, unless you really know the builder and trust their work. If all screws are to be clocked (SloopJB's pet peeve) - ask for it. If you want AWAB hose clamps don't just say "hose clamps". Brand names are good but be aware if you're a N.American and you're having a boat build in Europe or Asia the brand name bilge pump you want may be 3x the cost because they use a local brand that is as good but made locally so no import taxes or duty.
Allowances If you don't know what you want yet i.e. I have not selected a chandelier, put in a clause like "builder shall allow $3000 for chandelier purchase, make and model to be advised. Labour for installation shall be included in the basic price for the boat. Any deviation from purchase price to be debited/credited to owner". So if you get him to buy a $1000 chandelier you'll get $2K back.
Expectations and prior experience In the 1960s and 1970s our specification for a 25m tugboat was about 20 pages because owner knew local builders and builders understood what was expected. Now they are about 200-300 pages because we often don't know the builder or owner well, so we have to do more CYA.
Labour costs Understand about local labour costs (mostly I'm thinking Asia/S.AFrica vs rest of world). Sanding and fairing is CHEAP in low labour cost countries. You can hire somebody for $25 day to sand. SO....the consequence is they can build a bit rougher in the first part, and then throw lots of heavy fairing on it to hide the shitty build. I'm mostly looking at S.Africa but some Asian yards are similar.
La Vag trimaran build. Not very clean and tidy work.
The grey is primer so that's OK - but under the grey is a lot of white fairing compound everywhere
This is pretty rough work. But it will all be faired / painted or covered with a liner. I don't think Riley knows what good vs bad is.
Not so bad you think? This is a Cookson Volvo 60 (Kevlar so golden). No fairing needed.
Can you see the difference in quality?
Man I could go on but that's 15 minutes and is enough for today. Back to work!
But, for the builder - honestly what you as the owner might write in the spec will be interpreted by the builder as the "easiest simple cheapest" way to do it sometimes.
I think a good representative should allow some give and take. I.e. trading off an item that that is painful for the builder for future goodwill down the track when they really need a little or no cost change.
example: Builder says you specified brand X circuit breakers and I can't get them for a reasonable amount. Can I substitute brand Y and here are the specs for both so you can compare and approve them? (get YOUR handy electrician to look over the tripping curves if you are not an expert). You agree and say "OK but you owe me one"
In a month when you want the dishwasher changed out to a better model because you just wrote "dishwasher" in the spec, and builder is shopping at Home Despot, the builder is going to look more kindly on the change and not screw you ESPECIALLY if you remind them of last month's circuit breaker issue.
example: In another case we were designing and supervising building a 45 knot x 63' cabin cruiser. Looked like a regular 28 knot boat but went very fast. Everything had to be light. Boat was build in aluminum. We discussed weight of fairing with the builder as we were writing the spec.
The clause was "how fair does the aluminum hull have to be BEFORE application of fairing compound" i.e. we were trying to minimize weight of fairing due to a distorted hull plating.
We wrote something like "Hull shall be fair prior to application of fairing compound. "Fair" means that you can place a 1m long batten anywhere along the hull and there shall be no gap big enough to slide a #1 paper clip under the batten". This is actually hard to achieve on a thin skinned alum. boat.
Builder agreed that yes, they could agree to what we proposed. Everybody was happy because we all understood what was possible for them to achieve. We hadn't written in the impossible. i.e. "No fairing compound shall be used"
More lessons learned: Vague clauses like "a top quality yacht finish" are really hard to enforce. If you attach example photographs of other boats fittings, interiors etc. you find acceptable then builder will have a better chance of understanding what you expect so there are no hurt feelings or surprises.
Specs should be as detailed as possible Have the fabric choices, floor covering, wall treatment, etc etc all spelled out with as much detail as possible. You can't have too much detail usually, unless you really know the builder and trust their work. If all screws are to be clocked (SloopJB's pet peeve) - ask for it. If you want AWAB hose clamps don't just say "hose clamps". Brand names are good but be aware if you're a N.American and you're having a boat build in Europe or Asia the brand name bilge pump you want may be 3x the cost because they use a local brand that is as good but made locally so no import taxes or duty.
Allowances If you don't know what you want yet i.e. I have not selected a chandelier, put in a clause like "builder shall allow $3000 for chandelier purchase, make and model to be advised. Labour for installation shall be included in the basic price for the boat. Any deviation from purchase price to be debited/credited to owner". So if you get him to buy a $1000 chandelier you'll get $2K back.
Expectations and prior experience In the 1960s and 1970s our specification for a 25m tugboat was about 20 pages because owner knew local builders and builders understood what was expected. Now they are about 200-300 pages because we often don't know the builder or owner well, so we have to do more CYA.
Labour costs Understand about local labour costs (mostly I'm thinking Asia/S.AFrica vs rest of world). Sanding and fairing is CHEAP in low labour cost countries. You can hire somebody for $25 day to sand. SO....the consequence is they can build a bit rougher in the first part, and then throw lots of heavy fairing on it to hide the shitty build. I'm mostly looking at S.Africa but some Asian yards are similar.
La Vag trimaran build. Not very clean and tidy work.
The grey is primer so that's OK - but under the grey is a lot of white fairing compound everywhere
This is pretty rough work. But it will all be faired / painted or covered with a liner. I don't think Riley knows what good vs bad is.
Not so bad you think? This is a Cookson Volvo 60 (Kevlar so golden). No fairing needed.
Can you see the difference in quality?
Man I could go on but that's 15 minutes and is enough for today. Back to work!
Invaluable info for people there.
The owner I work for tells a story where the client wasn't happy at the amount he had to pay for 2 hours of financial advice. His reply was " you are paying for over 30 years of experience not the 2 hours".
I am no expert but some of that carbon work looks pretty rough.
The owner I work for tells a story where the client wasn't happy at the amount he had to pay for 2 hours of financial advice. His reply was " you are paying for over 30 years of experience not the 2 hours".
I am no expert but some of that carbon work looks pretty rough.
mpenman
Member
Javelin is a good cat supervised by Chris at Bongers I believe. Still has some limited faring and not to the ACC quality, but the price reflects that. His boat is light and fast. I've sailed a few times with him on that boat and it's a good one.
@ol70 don't rule out advice from @Zonker cause he knows visually exactly what he is looking at. His explanation of using hours of labor to longboard the boat is absolutely true.
On our final boat (yup final) we did time and materials. I did not want a number arbitrarily stuck in someone's head to get in the way of doing it right. You run into issues at times that are unforeseen and taking the extra time to do it right saves HUGE time afterwards. This is both at the materials and electrical side.
Everything in the bilges was left carbon with an epoxy coating so no faring needed.
One thing he mention is peel ply. You can actually catch this with NDT if you stipulate it, which we did on all our non ACC carbon work. Another thing to ask for is please only work on my boat from tuesday thru thursday
.Showing up on a Friday afternoon with a case of beer just as the day is ending is also appreciated in some cultures.Another thing to ask for is please only work on my boat from tuesday thru thursday
Really hard to tell from low resolution Youtube videos but yeah that looks like a lot of lumpy carbon. Might be a mix of good and less good laminators. Some of the taping I saw was plain ugly.
Lots of bog here. I think it's the boom but I don't see a lot of molds being used. So lots of fairing to make it all smooth and shiny instead of getting the part right in the mold.
I think the problem for Nick based on information that they have mentioned is that they probably feel Javelin would turn into a USD1m (and possibly plus) by the time it's redone - right - and given their thoughts about the state of the world they didn't want to allot that level of funds to a boat at the moment.
Also possibly some insurance issues worried them too. And Javelin had been hit by lightning.
Still, apart from not being a new build, USD1m wouldn't be overdoing it to end up with a very nice, customised to their spec, Chris White Atlantic 55. I think there's some real value to be had in some second hand older performance cats on the market - but yes they will need a refit, and yes you will still have an older boat - but no you don't need to wait for a new build (although refits still take time too).
Also, some of the older boats have features that are actually difficult to buy now unless going custom, eg: my old favourite of longer, slimmer, and less accommodation relatively speaking. Even Outremer are moving away from that, answering the demand from the market for more volume in the same length - even in a performance design. I wonder how much longer it will be possible to order a new 5X? Did we already see somewhere that they will be stopping production? Perhaps in the future the 5X design will become what the old Outremer 55 is now in the second hand market - a long light design at a somewhat reasonable price (after some years of depreciation) because all the new boats are higher volume?
As mentioned by some of the previous posts, @ol70 etc, USD1m is just getting started for this type of boat. And I think @CapDave said he spent another $200,000 on top of the purchase price of his Atlantic 57, getting some things right, adding a spares inventory, etc, etc.
Those are entirely reasonable numbers to do things right at that level. I think I mentioned early on this thread that something needed to give between size, price, length, and performance desired (and condition/quality should be added to that too) - and Nick is finding that exact same issue.
Javelin would probably still be a good boat for them though, especially since they could do the work over time with Chris on call (as they do quite a lot themselves) AND it would probably be great for their channel - not only the process with a performance cat, but also something much more different, not the normal brands and models that tend to feature online - instead a Chris White, forward cockpit, etc.
The only point I would note is that Nick is quite tall and because of the salon cabin top design access down the companionways is not so good for him.
There is a solution to that of course - convert the salon to @mpenman 's 72 style setup...
Also possibly some insurance issues worried them too. And Javelin had been hit by lightning.
Still, apart from not being a new build, USD1m wouldn't be overdoing it to end up with a very nice, customised to their spec, Chris White Atlantic 55. I think there's some real value to be had in some second hand older performance cats on the market - but yes they will need a refit, and yes you will still have an older boat - but no you don't need to wait for a new build (although refits still take time too).
Also, some of the older boats have features that are actually difficult to buy now unless going custom, eg: my old favourite of longer, slimmer, and less accommodation relatively speaking. Even Outremer are moving away from that, answering the demand from the market for more volume in the same length - even in a performance design. I wonder how much longer it will be possible to order a new 5X? Did we already see somewhere that they will be stopping production? Perhaps in the future the 5X design will become what the old Outremer 55 is now in the second hand market - a long light design at a somewhat reasonable price (after some years of depreciation) because all the new boats are higher volume?
As mentioned by some of the previous posts, @ol70 etc, USD1m is just getting started for this type of boat. And I think @CapDave said he spent another $200,000 on top of the purchase price of his Atlantic 57, getting some things right, adding a spares inventory, etc, etc.
Those are entirely reasonable numbers to do things right at that level. I think I mentioned early on this thread that something needed to give between size, price, length, and performance desired (and condition/quality should be added to that too) - and Nick is finding that exact same issue.
Javelin would probably still be a good boat for them though, especially since they could do the work over time with Chris on call (as they do quite a lot themselves) AND it would probably be great for their channel - not only the process with a performance cat, but also something much more different, not the normal brands and models that tend to feature online - instead a Chris White, forward cockpit, etc.
The only point I would note is that Nick is quite tall and because of the salon cabin top design access down the companionways is not so good for him.
There is a solution to that of course - convert the salon to @mpenman 's 72 style setup...
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Really good post
But then Zonker IS an industry professional and knows what he is talking about regarding these subjects - so no surprise that advice from an expert, is well, expert advice!
All normal stuff (or should be), but then as some of examples being posted show - actually not so normal from many builders...
Sadly this is sometimes forgotten by prospective owners - buying / building a high end yacht is not the same as buying a high end car. So, don't totally drink the cool aid from the designer / builder either - they still want to sell you something... and none of them do everything right, despite their claims.
And this ties back into the various comments about a build captain/supervisor/manager - even for a production boat where the purchase price involved is now starting to be quite significant and it makes sense to protect the investment. I think Riley is in over his head in that regard, despite his best efforts (but good to see @ol70 looking to protect his investment in this way now too
)With Rapido in particular, I guess somehow their boats, especially the 60, are more like semi custom, so not full production with a lot of moulds, and as you said using cheap labour as an alternative to that.
That comes back to what the Cure Marine guys in Australia are trying to do, and my comment about factory robots in the future.
Cooksons are (were) at a whole different level. I used to live close by way back when.
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My repair, replace, upgrade, maintain record is at 258 line items since 12/5/18. Doesn't include the engines, they have their own maintenance record now at 71 line items for the two.
We also do a lot of minor recurring maintenance tasks that we don't put on the list, just keep a note running of the last time we did it for our own reference.
Edit - we have also lived on the boat full time and sailed her nearly 17K miles; dinged by the pandemic, would have been more otherwise. If we keep our nerve and execute our summer cruise plan we'll do another 9K this year.
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Dazcat Ocean Cruiser Walkthrough 1 with the Designers
Trying to tick a lot of the boxes now that some of the other manufacturers are adding more volume to their performance designs?
With a '13 to 1 Waterline Beam to Length Ratio' I guess she will be pretty narrow, slippery, and low volume, like most of the Dazcats tend to be.
Could be a good option for someone
Yes really great quality. Very much at the top of the list at the time when I was involved.
I think so too. Hulls and amas in molds. But the crossbeam had exposed carbon on the underside which suggests it was built maybe in a 3 sided mold (top+sides). Raised saloon all looks to pieced together. The cabin roof has way too much structure underneath fot my liking. Looks really odd.
Carbon can hide a multitude of sins, delams in glass are fairly obvious compared. Even the best yards have bad days but are prepared to scrap and deal with problems, it can be very expensive for them. I once had to strip out a load of carbon after a failure in the wet out machine became apparent no other choice really I suspect some may have carried on and hoped for the best. Using cheap labour for fairing ( It's a skill ) can have issues, the dreaded sand through,( some laminates are pretty thin ) hidden by a nice blob of filler boat looks great, but it really is just foam and filler very hard to detect unless in a high stress area.
steelmadesteamer
Member
The Dazcat OC looks like a laundry list of features gathered up from around the entire fleet (performance and condo both), and sprinkled across the drawing board and the verbiage. Feels like more of a concept presentation than a real design.
It's technically an enormously challenging and complex design - does Daz really have the chops to pull that off? My third-hand impression was that they built excellent though plain light go-fast boats. This is not that.
Four helms is really hard - I don't care if you do build everything of carbon, that's a lot of inertia and backlash, and a lot of engineering. And then they've sprinkled lines and winches all over the boat, which they've "fixed" by giving you a remote control. And, implied, that's a boom furler with the halyard winch synchronized to the furler motor.
And those are some pretty big topsides parked on those skinny hulls, the immersion rate will not be trivial. Can they really bring in all that promised tech at 12K kg light? And I've never thought that whale bottoms make a great cruising boat - the first thing you hit (daggers up) is the saildrive or rudder.
I think this is exactly the kind of design that gets bought by an owner/operator without the experience to dial in such a complex boat, built and commissioned without supervision, the yard is over their heads on a whole new level of complexity themselves, and it will never work right, and will change hands every 3 years.
"Sail control lines run to dedicated electric forward and rewinding winches that can be remote operated. Safety, comfort and convenience define everything about the DOC and the automated system including remote sail handling and autopilot are an important element in risk mitigation"
"Wherever you are, you can trim all the sails and adjust boat heading using your remote control. You can even stand on deck to park it if you prefer that over the masthead cameras and good all-around view from the internal helm station"
"A two-burner electric hob and combi microwave/ oven/ grill/ steamer will meet all of your cooking needs. Add in fridge, freezer, pressure cooker, toaster, blender, kettle, coffee machine, dishwasher, and you have every pleasure a cook could possibly need"
Veeger
Super Anarchist
I'd find it hard to believe you could do a custom 50' ocean cat for under $2 million these days. I had a 48' power cat design go through a comprehensive build estimate. For a long, but light (#16000 displacement boat) the estimate for fairing and painting was well over $200k alone. (US yard and labor)
I really wanted to have a custom build, but as M Kings is discovering, the pitfalls and traps as well as materials/ equipment availability issues quickly mounted. Even IF I could swallow those challenges, the real deal killer was an estimated 2-4 years build time. (Labor, materials issues etc, etc)
Nope. I'm out. I took the imperfect production monohull and will be sailing as soon as the weather makes it a bit more fun... It'll be less expensive, even if it sinks while uninsured, than a custom boat.
Admittedly, I'm not looking to either live aboard, nor cross oceans, so I can accept some shortcomings.
The dream dies hard, but it consists much more of the intangibles that we all enjoy 'out there' while the pursuit of perfection will pretty much take out much /most of the joy we're hoping for.
I really wanted to have a custom build, but as M Kings is discovering, the pitfalls and traps as well as materials/ equipment availability issues quickly mounted. Even IF I could swallow those challenges, the real deal killer was an estimated 2-4 years build time. (Labor, materials issues etc, etc)
Nope. I'm out. I took the imperfect production monohull and will be sailing as soon as the weather makes it a bit more fun... It'll be less expensive, even if it sinks while uninsured, than a custom boat.
Admittedly, I'm not looking to either live aboard, nor cross oceans, so I can accept some shortcomings.
The dream dies hard, but it consists much more of the intangibles that we all enjoy 'out there' while the pursuit of perfection will pretty much take out much /most of the joy we're hoping for.
I agree, they’re trying to tick all the boxes for where the market appears to be heading, a push button fully automated boat.
To me that’s a nightmare. But Dazcat is known for a high quality simple build and the ability to work with customers to give them the cat they desire, so maybe it’s possible they could cut out the high tech fluff and build the 55’er at under 12 tons?
Either way have you checked out their labor rates? Less than 1/2 than in the US and about what a catamaran builder I worked for charged almost 25 years ago.
toolbar
Member
Didn't Daz design / build the Rapier 550? That was a big pushbutton boat as well. Don't remember the weight though (looked it up - 9,8 t displacement according to the marketing material).