Choosing the right performance cruising cat for Uhuru.

[CapDave]

Yes, me too, more so regarding the Wakespeed Regulator setup that has been used, since the battery situation is mostly well understood now.

Overheating the alternators can be common as the lithium batteries will take a lot of current so maybe some extra ventilation was applied directly to the alternators themselves?

Not sure if his alternators have external remote mounted rectifiers like some Electrodyne models (probably not, it's not very common) - but that is another good way to remove heat.

I had personal experience with Electrodyne since 25 years ago. They are serious pieces of commercial grade equipment - not repurposed generic alternators with 'marine' stamped on them like some items for sale.

On the Electrodyne models even the 'fans' are machined from billet aluminium - but that's because they are in fact an integral part of the rotor.

Here's a couple of photos from a recently built explorer (motor) yacht that fitted Wakespeed Regulators and Electrodyne Alternators. You can see the remotely mounted Rectifier box with it's own fan, and in this case installed outside the engine compartment too.

These particular models are spec'd for 250A at 24V DC so are in effect two alternators on a common shaft in this configuration. Other configurations are available too of course.

You can see that they are constructed more like something mechanical than electrical, and they can be user serviced with spanners and sockets - spare parts kits are available.

Maybe it's interesting for someone who wants (or needs) to take on a project like this.

I installed a 250A @24V Electrodyne alternator on a boat in 2002. We didn't have the remote rectifiers. It was an amazing machine and performed flawlessly. Of course we didn't have lithium batteries back then, so didn't get full output continuously, but we had a 650AH @24V PbA bank that it did a great job with! We had also modified the wiring on the boat so that motoring downwind in light airs we could run AirCon off the inverter instead of starting the generator - and the Electrodyne made this possible.

 

[jmh2002]

I installed a 250A @24V Electrodyne alternator on a boat in 2002. We didn't have the remote rectifiers. It was an amazing machine and performed flawlessly. Of course we didn't have lithium batteries back then, so didn't get full output continuously, but we had a 650AH @24V PbA bank that it did a great job with! We had also modified the wiring on the boat so that motoring downwind in light airs we could run AirCon off the inverter instead of starting the generator - and the Electrodyne made this possible.

Yep My first experience with Electrodyne was installing a 125A @24V alternator on a monohull sailing boat somewhere in the late 1990s.

I chose the remote rectifiers even on that smaller model because the engine compartment was tight and the alternator was shoe horned in with not much space around it and poor ventilation. I say smaller model, but that was still the equivalent of 250A at 12V - quite a lot still in the 1990s.

I concur that the Electrodyne was an amazing machine, hence why I still suggest them now as a possible option for some setups (although now we have much better solar so don't always need such serious alternators).

But, nobody regrets buying quality. I was fortunate enough to deal with 'the old man' at Electrodyne who was semi retired but still came into the office and dealt with the odd small one off orders like a sailboat. Maybe you dealt with him too? I forget his name.

Normally Electrodyne sells big orders to the government, for ambulances, fire trucks, to heavy machinery manufacturers, etc, and to the military for well... you know what for. They make serious stuff. Stuff that absolutely must work.

But for just one small order, of just one single alternator, for one small sailboat, well we still got the absolute best of personal service. Dropping Steve Dashew's name helped get a foot in the door I think (Dashew put me on to Electrodyne).

'The old man' was very particular about ensuring we would have the right setup. He didn't want his company name on something that wasn't going to work properly. I'm sure he has passed away by now, but I would not be surprised if that alternator is still going strong! This type of service doesn't always exist anymore these days. We live in a world of throw away products and customer service comes from the call centre in some foreign land.

And unlike most alternators, although the 125A @24V was the nominal rating, I never really saw much less than that. Only perhaps when motoring all day long in no wind causing the engine compartment to become heat saturated, but even then it would only lose 5-10A.

At the time it was common that other manufacturers alternators would lose up to 50% of rated output when they got hot. And it was common for them not to last very long either before frying themselves. People carried whole spare alternators onboard.

So unbelievably good performance from the Electrodyne compared to most of the rubbish alternators that sailing boats had back then. I think the remote rectifiers really made a big difference even with the poor installation environment for the alternator.

We had the brown lead acid Trojan golf cart type batteries at that point. I don't remember exactly how many AH - 400 @24V or thereabouts I think.

We went all out on a really good DC setup (for the time) as the boat didn't have a generator and we didn't want one either. Money that would have been spent on a generator and installation went into optimising the DC systems instead.

We had one of those Heart Interface Link 2000 controllers (see below) and the associated regulator that had the newish (at that time) charging profile that kept the amps up in the 'bulk' phase to charge much faster, as well as other battery control and maintenance functions.

We also went with one of Glacier Bay's big ass shaft driven DC motor powered fridge/freezer compressors (see below) which just like the Electrodyne alternators was a serious lump of kit, also stupidly expensive - but also worked without one single issue and could also be serviced like a piece of mechanical equipment, unlike the Danfoss sealed units that were common then. And of course we carried spares, and our own refrigerant gas, and our own guages, etc, etc, and knew how to use all that stuff - it was a different time back then...

And of course all this meant the fridge and freezer would run off the batteries, cycling away as needed, instead of having to run the engine which used to drive the compressor. We sound proofed the Glacier Bay compartment and could barely hear it.

Glacier Bay also had a setup where by that compressor could also run their own custom air conditioning too (piping cold refrigerant instead of cold air to each cabin - just like the very latest efficient systems do now - but 25 years ago! Funny how things come full circle).

We felt it was good to have the option of AirCon for the future but in the end we never got around to installing it as the boat was out cruising most of the year and always almost at anchor when in the tropics so we could get good flow through ventilation - with a custom awning and a long and low profile scoop setup that prevented the need to close the hatches in the rain.

Remember this was at a time when all sailing boats regularly had battery, charging, and refrigeration problems on a regular basis.

The watermaker cat pump remained belt driven off the engine but we only needed to make water every few days so we just coincided making water with charging.

Hot water was made via the normal engine cooling loop, as well as a shore power circuit. So we switched it's shore power circuit over to the inverter to provide options there too. And cruising in the tropics meant we didn't need a lot of hot water. And switching to an ultra efficient Isotherm hot water cylinder with literally inches of bright orange insulation around it meant the water stayed hot for much longer too.

Of course ultimately the engine still needed to be run to recharge the drain that all these loads caused on the batteries, but it gave us the flexibility to decide when and where to charge, while the systems themselves continued to run in the background.

And the monster Electrodyne alternator ate all this work for breakfast without batting an eye. So engine running time for charging was vastly reduced compared to the original setup, or compared to many boats that ran a generator for hours and hours.

As an aside (if anyone is still reading this far and is still interested ) there was limited availability of LED lights back then, and even the interior lights were a big DC electricity consumer because incandescent was so inefficient. Not good for an all DC boat that is trying to be efficient and run off batteries as much as possible.

So we installed these trick lights from 'Bob in Montana' (I kid you not...) who had a little cottage business catering to the nascent 'off grid' world way back then. They were called Alpenglow and used customised CFL bulbs. At that stage I think he made them at his kitchen table, and in his woodworking shop out back. But if you sent your own wood, he would even custom make matching frames from it!

Of course we chose the most expensive variant (of course! probably you note the theme here... but it was often the only way to get anything decent that would work properly, be efficient, and last - a lot of stuff was simply rubbish back then). This variant had white CFL, low power red LED, and high and low settings, in each water resistant fitting, and we replaced every light in the boat - about 20 if I remember correctly, and about $2000 worth of lights. 'Bob in Montana' was very happy with our order...

So another stupidly expensive item, but yet again another item that just worked perfectly and was well worth it. And being able to switch the whole boat to red for passages was both pretty cool as well as very practical.

The business still exists, and even offers LED upgrades to the old CFL lights. I posted the link to Bob's story below too - because, well, it's kind of neat...

And, in the late 1990s, we also had a big flat screen monitor at the nav station hooked up to a mini tower windows PC running NavTrek 97 chart plotting software (anyone remember that !?). And all the instruments, chart plotter, and radar were all integrated and talked to each other. Also quite a revelation for many smaller boats back then, and again something made possible and practical by the serious charging and electrical system powered by Mr Electrodyne.


Of course now all the modern boats that we have been talking about in this thread are setup like this.

But back in the 1990s this was rare with an all DC boat. Or, if you had an all DC boat you also often had very limited systems onboard, or some systems that would only work at the dock plugged in to shore power.

We were rarely at the dock plugged into shore power, and instead everything still worked anchored out in some remote bay.

One thing that hasn't changed is that it was an expensive setup then and still is now. And some components were heavy too (although no weight from a generator so it balanced out). But ultimately it did give us the autonomy that we wanted so was worth every cent.


Maybe the look back in time was interesting to people now too? Especially some of the lengths that we needed to go to in order to get an efficient setup that worked, and that was reliable?

At least now all of this equipment is more readily available from multiple different manufacturers and you don't need to find, seek out, and communicate (not via the internet!) with 'Bob in Montana' just for some decent low consumption interior lighting...

About | Alpenglow Lights

www.alpenglowlights.com

 

[loop]

Great write-up, thank you! I can directly relate to much of this equipment from our time out cruising 2002-5, incl Alpenglow lights.

 

[jmh2002]

This is getting a bit ridiculous now...

I'm surprised that if this was really the boat for them that they let it slip through their fingers yet again?

And that they didn't take a step like hiring a delivery crew to move the boat to another location, and/or hauling the boat out until they could get back to it.

They do state in the comments that "This boat has been sitting on a mooring for five years. It isn’t to our standards for ocean travel. We’d planned on working on it for most of the summer."

But on the other hand it's starting to look like they are not that serious either, and walk away when obstacles appear. Sometimes you need to throw money at problems to make them go away.

Ok, that's their choice of course, but it may also be why this saga continues...

(but Mambo managed to go from zero to boat in a matter of months)


Boat Buying Hell & Hackers impersonate our attorney!

 

[usa169]

@Mambo Kings if this deal is done let’s get some pictures of your bad ass new toy up. Come’on man..

 

[usa169]

This is getting a bit ridiculous now...

I'm surprised that if this was really the boat for them that they let it slip through their fingers yet again?

And that they didn't take a step like hiring a delivery crew to move the boat to another location, and/or hauling the boat out until they could get back to it.

They do state in the comments that "This boat has been sitting on a mooring for five years. It isn’t to our standards for ocean travel. We’d planned on working on it for most of the summer."

But on the other hand it's starting to look like they are not that serious either, and walk away when obstacles appear. Sometimes you need to throw money at problems to make them go away.

Ok, that's their choice of course, but it may also be why this saga continues...

(but Mambo managed to go from zero to boat in a matter of months)


Boat Buying Hell & Hackers impersonate our attorney!

Ya man, seems like they could have figured it out but messing with even a benign spot next to one’s eye is probably cause for stress. Maybe Nick’s holding out hoping for a call from Phil. ;-)

Kinda surprised by their choice. That’s a lot of boat. Only sensible reason to step into a performance boat is to make miles. Had the impression that an OU 55 L was marginal from a blu—water perspective. Is that what you had @karst ?

Still one of the better channels I think.

 

[Tylo]

Check out this thing, looks to have a pretty wild length/beam on those hulls.

1996 Catamaran Wing Mast / Mât Aile Catamaran for sale - YachtWorld

Find more information and images about the boat and contact the seller or search more boats for sale on YachtWorld.

www.yachtworld.com

 

[steelmadesteamer]

pretty wild length/beam on those hulls.

Wonder if they first added length to her bow or stern !?

Or both ?!

 

[Leowu]

Rendering done at early stage before detail design.

Then engineers say "uh those have to be bigger sorry. Or maybe make them from CF"
Sales "too much $$"
engineers "right bigger it is"

I agree the HH52 look even more optimistic. One of the thing you should consider with this sort of big open structure is "racking" i.e. fore/aft or transverse movement of the roof relative to the hulls. Think of a rickety folding card table with poorly braced legs. Really swept aft sloping side mullions don't help you with that at all. Only the 4 in the corners. I suspect they are relying heavily on the bonded on windows to provide a lot of membrane support. Tricky to do and still have the bond elastic enough to deal with thermal expansion.

(Are windows glass instead of plastic? that would do it - just like car windshields front and back are structural elements). Generally in my world we ignore windows as structural elements but in this case I think they are important to keeping it all rigid enough.

View attachment 586606


Look at a Gunboat 48. Big wide supports. Obviously after the engineering was done

View attachment 586607

Gunboat's wheel station is located in front of the salon,the big wide supports doesn't affect the view. but this wheel station is behind the salon ,it obviously blocks the view.

 

[Leowu]

Jesus Christ, what the hell happened?
Render:
View attachment 586604
Reality:
View attachment 586599

this salon layout look like a Alpha 42, what is the name of this cat ?

 

[jmh2002]

Interesting video about what happens when you 'get it wrong' and have too much sail up in 40kn on an Outremer 55.

It wasn't a total disaster but does depict some poor decision making processes (which he admits, and which we can learn from, or be reminded by), including a lack of the fundamental understanding of the need to keep the boat balanced by reducing both the Headsails and the Mainsail in a step by step process.

Result, full Mainsail in 40kn off the wind causes a loss of steering control and a forced 100deg! round up that couldn't be corrected by manually steering. I guess they were at full lock by that point and the rudders were simply overwhelmed. Fortunately while there was some sea running, it wasn't yet huge.

I do also note that at around 13min20sec the front vertical window is a little bit open and water splashes inside into the nav station and salon. I guess it was stuffy and humid inside, and there was not enough ventilation? Come to think of it, do Outremers even have any passive ventilation (like a dorade and duct system via the anchor locker, etc)? I think they just rely on hatches instead don't they?

But this is where one mistake or problem can start a chain of events though, for example:

- water into the interior > possible loss of navigational/electrical systems
- urgent trip to the mast to reef > possible MOB as the crew were rushing and not clipped on
- etc

So, a reasonable outcome in the end, but there is always the potential for it to be worse.

Probably it would have been better to already have 1 or 2 reefs in the Mainsail at the start (given the monster squall on the radar) and a bigger Headsail, and then have the option of rolling it and going to a Staysail. But this boat, like some others, is setup as follows:

- Code sails and Gennakers on the Bow Sprit
- Just a Solent on the (only) Forestay

Sometimes this can create too big of a gap between headsail options.

And I think this may have been why they were carrying the full Mainsail in the first place, because they didn't want to be under powered initially with only the smaller Solent up front, but of course didn't want to set anything on the Bow Sprit given the approaching squall. The wife not being onboard may have been another factor, leading to some unnecessary bravado or carelessness.

In my opinion a better option for a shorthanded cruising boat can be:

- Code sails and Gennakers on the Bow Sprit
- Bigger (non self tacking) Solent (or even overlapping headsail) on the Main Forestay
- Smaller Staysail (self tacking) on an Inner Forestay

(as far as Outremer is concerned from memory this is how the 5X model is setup, but maybe they wanted to keep the 55 'simpler' or maybe these are options which were not selected?)

The Inner forestay and Staysail can be removable if it's bothersome for tacking upwind with the Solent, although upwind the apparent builds quickly and you can more often justify moving to the self tacking Staysail when cruising, unless on a long upwind leg in lighter air, in which case you are not short tacking.

Anyway, some food for thought perhaps


Jump to 6min50sec if you want to skip the traditional Vanuatu 'land jumping' part of the video.

Crazy guys land diving in Vanuatu (and reefing too late) - Sailing Greatcircle (ep.295)

 

[Tark1]

Perfect example of not reefing early. The problem is then hesitating or not wanting to reef as it's now too windy and going to be difficult. That's the big mistake.
It's easier to shake a reef out than put one in.
As said above it's normally a series of events that cause major accidents. Reducing sail and keeping a boat balanced will hugely reduce the risk of a series of problems occurring.
Don't presume because a squall on the radar isn't moving quickly there is no wind in it, or on the front or back edge.
So many things could have happened and they were lucky.

 

[Tark1]

An interesting read and shows how quickly as jmh2002 said one problem leads to another and can be fatal.
Making sure that first problem never happens or taking quick action to stop the next problem is very important.
They got caught out but then waited way too long before reefing.
Why not just drop the main and run under headsail?

 

[us7070]

Interesting video about what happens when you 'get it wrong' and have too much sail up in 40kn on an Outremer 55.

pretty benign in the end

it looks like both boards are mostly down too

maybe they were lucky, or maybe the boat is pretty forgiving

I think i was on a dock with that boat in Europe last fall

 

[Tark1]

Pretty benign once they put 2 reefs in. If they had of done that before the squall there would have been a lot less risk of hurting someone or doing damage to the boat.

 

[CapDave]

We do tend to use TWS for reefing decisions, this keeps you honest in situations like this.

 

[Dogfish]

The interesting bit was how the boat rounded itself up so easily once the rudders had stalled out. Don't know if somebody on the helm would have done such a good job in the conditions, it's amazing how lucky you can be.

 

[he b gb]

The interesting bit was how the boat rounded itself up so easily once the rudders had stalled out. Don't know if somebody on the helm would have done such a good job in the conditions, it's amazing how lucky you can be.

Yes, it sure was a very mellow round up but could well have been a lot scarier situation in taller steeper seas. If they stuffed the leeward bow into a deep trough half way through that roundup I’m sure
that they’d be changing their underwear soon after.
It’s Incidents like that in 40kts true where I really appreciate the low centre of effort and weathercocking ability of my freestanding biplane rigs. Pretty sure I would not be sailing under autopilot under full main in 40kts also.

 

[ProaSailor]

If they stuffed the leeward bow into a deep trough half way through that roundup I’m sure
that they’d be changing their underwear soon after.

But they didn't. Good boat! Lesson learned.

 

[Dogfish]

But they didn't. Good boat! Lesson learned.

Hopefully, a previous video had them in 50kts in their lagoon check it out, looks pretty much on the edge to me, once again the boat kept them safe. Full credit for the video as everybody can learn from it, after all who hasn't been caught out not reefing earlier enough.