Chris White the new Atlantic 72 and follow-up of the capsized Atlantic 57 Leopard

[mpenman]

Have you tested the upside up system?
Which system do you have?
Electric release or air?
One cleat or 2?
Do you think it will make the boat much safer?
I have been thinking about it for a while but have not actually got around to buying a system.

We have the Upside Up Master from Ocean Data Systems. It's pneumatic and blows a shackle on the house connector for the mainsheet when a parameter is met. We do not have any cleats. We have two dump buttons, one on the inside helm and one on the outside helm station.
I think it makes the boat safer in a couple of ways. On our 57 we kept the main on the winch in the tailer with the clutch open. To dump the main quickly you had to be ready to get outside. Not optimal. I think having the ability to quickly dump the main is a huge upgrade.

We have had the system blow one time when we were surfing some waves inbound to Hatteras. The swell had picked up to 8-10 feet and we were running off the wind. Whenever we got a chance to really surf we did so, it was actually a magical few hours sailing. My son was on the helm and we had the preventer pulled in pretty tight to keep the main way out and not bouncing. Got on a really nice roller, pointed it down the line and we heard the system compressor running. Realized we had activated the system. Franklygiven the sea state and acceleration the system activated well IMHO.

I'm a fan of them, but they have to be setup and monitored, like anything else. On our boat the scary angles are in the 50-70 apparent with the wind picking up.

 

[Dark'N'Stormy]

Do you know what parameters or sensors they use to trigger the mainsheet dump? Seems like a normal accelerometer wouldn't work to measure heel angle, given the bumpy nature of ocean sailing.

 

[mpenman]

http://www.oceandatasystem.com/Documents/Brochure-UpSideUp-Master-EN.pdf

Is a good place to start.

There are many accelerometers and 9 axis sensors that can be used. It's the nature of change that is more important than the actual change. I'm not exactly sure which units make that Upside Up is using.
We use most of the release functions except for load cells as we don't currently use them in cruising config.

 

[toolbar]

Hrm, I have been trying to get a quote from ODS for a few weeks now. Apparently they are not too keen on selling anything. :-(

I'll have to build one myself then.

Apart from the actuator that releases the sheets, everything seems to be pretty straightforward. I think I'll try to go with a hinged cam-cleat with electomagnetic release.

Paul

 

[boardhead]

Guys - do you really want to trust this stuff on a dark and stormy night with your family asleep below?

Keep in mind you are on cruising boats doing this for adventure and fun.

Cruising cats are incredibly safe and can be driven quite quickly but they ain’t exciting - until that weather hull gets airborne when they quickly ramp up to terrifying!

My fat barge will safely progress all day in the low teens with a 70/30 weight loading on the hulls which is as far as I want to press the envelope while paying attention - not gonna leave the sheets to a confused sensor.

For more of a thrill step aboard a thrilling boat - I really don’t appreciate the hit these cruising cats take in their perceived safety and the insurance hike each time one flips and people get hurt/die.

 

[Wess]

Guys - do you really want to trust this stuff on a dark and stormy night with your family asleep below?

Keep in mind you are on cruising boats doing this for adventure and fun.

Cruising cats are incredibly safe and can be driven quite quickly but they ain’t exciting - until that weather hull gets airborne when they quickly ramp up to terrifying!

My fat barge will safely progress all day in the low teens with a 70/30 weight loading on the hulls which is as far as I want to press the envelope while paying attention - not gonna leave the sheets to a confused sensor.

For more of a thrill step aboard a thrilling boat - I really don’t appreciate the hit these cruising cats take in their perceived safety and the insurance hike each time one flips and people get hurt/die.

What he said. Times 1,000,000.

 

[mpenman]

Guys - do you really want to trust this stuff on a dark and stormy night with your family asleep below?

Keep in mind you are on cruising boats doing this for adventure and fun.

Cruising cats are incredibly safe and can be driven quite quickly but they ain’t exciting - until that weather hull gets airborne when they quickly ramp up to terrifying!

My fat barge will safely progress all day in the low teens with a 70/30 weight loading on the hulls which is as far as I want to press the envelope while paying attention - not gonna leave the sheets to a confused sensor.

For more of a thrill step aboard a thrilling boat - I really don’t appreciate the hit these cruising cats take in their perceived safety and the insurance hike each time one flips and people get hurt/die.

I think you misunderstand our use of our Upside Up system, it's a last-ditch effort to save the boat, not something we rely on. We're normally very conservatively canvassed. It takes hurricane force winds to flip over these types of boats if sailed correctly. In race mode with a lot of sail up some of the boats will fly a hull in 12knots of breeze. Our boat and rig is not designed for that. That's a serious, serious load on the rig to pick a hull outta the water.

If your boat is sailing in the low teens then it is hauling the mail. That's 240-300+ mile plus days. You're not doing that on the current set of charter boats, so your boat is definitely not a barge. There are only a very select few boats out there that can do those kinda speeds reliably. I'd be curious to hear what type of boat you are sailing? I also do not understand the 70/30 weight loading.

Very, very few boats flip and if they do it's a freak event, normally an undetected microburst. Sometimes nothing helps in those types of conditions.

The current insurance hit was because of the fiasco insuring the Caribbean charter cats, not the high-performance cats.
I'd wager that more bad stuff happens on a per mile basis on the heavy overloaded cats than the high-performance cats.

All the capsizes that I know of, from Leopard to Fujin, no one has died or been critically hurt. EPIRB's have played a great role in safety.

I do this stuff with 6 kids and a wife. We take it seriously and definitely do it for adventure and of course fun. Crossing oceans quickly puts you in way less danger than doing it slowly.

 

[Mambo Kings]

I agree too. There are some awful catamarans being built currently that simply cannot sail upwind. Remember that Dashew's boats and Route 66 routinely sail high up in the teens, but many are also 70ft plus boats. Cats are definitely more expensive to build, as in much more expensive. Personally I would take a mono over some of the condomarans, but it would have to be something akin to a Route 66 or Deerfoot. I like in cockpit reefing and so prefer the CW setup over mono's but have no aversion to saying that many monos are simply a better buy and better value than many cats today.

BUT at anchor a cat is far superior in a rolly anchorage.

This is more than academic for me.

I am transitioning from a sail boat racer who likes to go cruising on vacation to a cruiser who will go sail boat racing for my vacations.

I am clear on one thing. I will always keep my race boat and my cruising boat entirely separate. The compromise doesn't work for me. When it comes to the racing, I understand my addiction. It is reasonably under control . Two identical boats, one in Europe and one in the USA, racing with and against life long friends.

The choice of cruising boat for the next chapter in my life is not under control at the moment.
Here are my criteria:

1. I want to be able to make fast passages. Even if it is a day sail, I like to get there in 4 hours rather than 6 hours. If I am running from the Galapagos to Marquesas, I want to make a fast passage. I have not defined the pace precisely yet. Should I be looking for 200+ nm days? Not sure yet. There is no overlap with the speeds I accomplish when racing. I want a fast ,comfortable passage not the fastest passage. Prompt not terrifying. I have plenty of opportunities to scare myself when racing in the vicinity of rescue.

2. The vessel should be a joy to sail. I love everything about sailing, the feel of the helm in my hand and the feel of the deck under my toes. It is the most relaxing feeling in the world and I want a boat that conveys that feeling. I know that there are some fast cruising mono hulls that convey that joy. I know that racing multihulls offer joy (because I have raced on them) I know that condomarans do not. I have not sailed on a performance cruising multihull.

3. I want to be safe and I want my family to be safe. I know two things. One, I intend to avoid sailing in 40+ knots of breeze.....Two, If you sail for long enough you will get caught by 40+ knots of breeze.

4. (a) The saloon and daily living space cannot be the cave. If you are sailing in beautiful parts of the world , part of the experience is being surrounded by the beauty when you are sitting in the saloon with the family, not just when you are at the helm
(b) I can sleep in a cave (aka hull) just fine. (As long as the motion is joyful).
Steve and Liz Dashwood have done this with their monohulls so have Boreal and some others. The performance cruising cats have done this....but I have never sailed a performance cruising cat.

5. The boat has to be really well set up for short-handed sailing. Chris White made a really wise comment on the video. Most cruising boats are sailed by couples, which means they are sailed single-handed because someone is sleeping.
My accommodation requirements are less demanding than most. We have one son at college. I like to think he will join us from time to time and I hope he will bring his significant other. It is too far out to contemplate his children. We will have a couple of friends or family from time to time because so many of our friends and all my family are sailors. But the length of the boat is determined by my sailing requirements not the number of berths.

6. Length. I differ from the post about volume. Length affects sailing. I havent drawn a line in the sand but somewhere around 50+/- gives me performance, safety, comfort and single handed maneuverability

So I am somewhat flailing. One Friday I am looking at higher speed expedition yachts and the next reading up on performance cruising multi-hulls. The good news is that list is gradually getting shorter. The bad news is that it is gradually getting more expensive.

I am adding Chris White to the list.

Best

VMK

 

[F18 Sailor]

Mambo,

I did a delivery last month in the Gulf of Maine on a Corsair 37 carbon, and I've been on a pretty wicked up Gunboat 57 in the same time frame. I've also been on an Atlantic 57, though not sailed. I have to say, of the three for the use case you are describing, the Corsair 37 ticks all the boxes, at a fraction of the cost of a 50' performance cruising catamaran.

The Corsair 37 is quick; average speeds in the low teens are easily achieved under autopilot and white sails, and if you want to do 25kts with a full race crew on board you can (though I understand not mixing the two). We did 180nm, including a canal transit and a long motor through lobster pots exiting Deer Isle, in 24hours. This was three up with autohelm, and an average wind speed of 10kts dead downwind. A few days later, we did Woods Hole MA to Newport, RI (41nm) in under 4 hours with the screecher up, half reaching, half running in 15kts of breeze. We could have hoisted the A3 and shaved at least 30min off that time if needed.

You get two full staterooms on opposite ends of the hull, though only one shared head (for me a positive, one less to clean). Space outside for guests and toys is incredible. Safety at speed to me felt more like sailing a monohull than a performance multihull. Loads are very reasonable for 2, and manageable by 1. Sailing sensation is high; Olympic helms have praised that part of the boat. For a folding trimaran, I thought she was of above average stiffness, it didn't feel like there was any ama racking in 3'+ waves. I could see 8' waves causing concern, but the smaller 31's have done Transpacific and Transatlantic crossings, and the 37 is a much larger, safer boat for that. You can also bring the boat right into the beach, with an 18" draft, and stern anchor in secluded areas. If you need to trailer or ship the boat, it can be done.

The downside is probably the saloon area, it has space for 4, 6 if you squeeze, and the galley is smaller than I would like for long term cruising (i.e more than 1 week). I personally like an oven onboard, and you might want an icemaker+water maker in the tropics. I do think there is a way to fit these in without too much hassle, but of course weight is always a concern with a performance multihull.

The other big concern is apparently Corsair "damaged" the molds...so a Rapido 40 or 50 might be the better option if going new. Of course, I also like the TS5 for new, but the Corsair remains the least expensive option that checks 9 out of 10 boxes.

My personal downside to the Atlantic 57 is the galley down arrangement. Great at sea, less so at anchor. The Gunboat...well, I think a 48 is the better choice...the loads are sky high and as such these boats tend to demand care and require deep wallets to maintain.

On the insurance issue, it is definitely a problem, the underwriters are lumping all mulithulls in together (everything from 15' off-the-beach cats) to Lagoon 78's. They're seeing the insurance risk as too high given the Caribbean charter fleet decimation. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of creativity and explaining to them that your 50' performance multihull with full-time captain and/or professional sailor onboard isn't in the same risk category.

 

[Wess]

I think you misunderstand our use of our Upside Up system, it's a last-ditch effort to save the boat, not something we rely on. We're normally very conservatively canvassed. It takes hurricane force winds to flip over these types of boats if sailed correctly. In race mode with a lot of sail up some of the boats will fly a hull in 12knots of breeze. Our boat and rig is not designed for that. That's a serious, serious load on the rig to pick a hull outta the water.

If your boat is sailing in the low teens then it is hauling the mail. That's 240-300+ mile plus days. You're not doing that on the current set of charter boats, so your boat is definitely not a barge. There are only a very select few boats out there that can do those kinda speeds reliably. I'd be curious to hear what type of boat you are sailing? I also do not understand the 70/30 weight loading.

Very, very few boats flip and if they do it's a freak event, normally an undetected microburst. Sometimes nothing helps in those types of conditions.

The current insurance hit was because of the fiasco insuring the Caribbean charter cats, not the high-performance cats.
I'd wager that more bad stuff happens on a per mile basis on the heavy overloaded cats than the high-performance cats.

All the capsizes that I know of, from Leopard to Fujin, no one has died or been critically hurt. EPIRB's have played a great role in safety.

I do this stuff with 6 kids and a wife. We take it seriously and definitely do it for adventure and of course fun. Crossing oceans quickly puts you in way less danger than doing it slowly.

Mike - so it’s clear my comment was not at all aimed at you or folks like you or the Upside Up system. I understood Board to be commenting on home made versions of Upside Up. I am also not a fan of the (too many) arrogant idiots that have flipped F-boats and are destroying the trimaran insurance market. Sorry if that was misunderstood. You have a cool boat that is well equipped AFAIK. Quite jealous of it LOL.

 

[munt]

Semi-innocent question: who and where are all these "many idiots" flipping F-boats? I know of one guy, an extremely good racer, who flipped his because of his hard core racing philosophy. I've sailed on em a fair bit and imho they are pretty hard to flip, you almost have to try. If there are a statistically significant number of F-boats being flipped that is influencing insurers I'd like to see some evidence. I'd also like to see insurance rates for jetskis and motorboats since your term, "arrogant idiots" seems to apply to a very high percentage of their operators. Just last week I witnessed 2 of em blithely pass under the bow of a very large container ship. Both got the 5 horns and frantic channel 16 calls and neither seemed aware of any issue. Of course, I've seen a few local sailors do exactly the same thing so...?

 

[boardhead]

mpenman - Automatic, pendulum actuated mainsheet dumping systems were tried back in the 60’s somewhat as a consequence of Bill Howell flipping Golden Cockerel - a 43’ Cat - in flat water, in the Solent in 25 knots puffing to maybe 30 - not a hurricane - racing with a full crew. Nobody really persevered even though Hepplewhite made a commercially available system. In survival conditions for your boat and mine (St Francis 44) there won’t be any sails aloft!

My, somewhat modified cruiser is not a barge and absolutely does make those speeds. On our return from the Bahamas this spring we averaged 8.7 across the Little Bahama bank and maxed at 16.9 under the asymmetric (flat water so no surfing or currents helping) then averaged 9.5 to Port Canaveral overnight maxing at 16.5. Crew was me (70), my wife (69) and a friend (65) - Old Farts Outing! Nobody tended sheets, all slept and ate well. 70% of the displacement on the lee hull, 30% on the windward - easily gauged on this 17,000 pound boat checking stern immersion/elevation while still REAL safe on the stability curve.

Multihulls DO flip.

ALL losses and claims contribute to the record but multis tend to be rated irrespective of quality.

A couple died on a 42’ Chris White cat that flipped in a Chicago-Mac. I had a discussion with a delivery skipper recently who told me he thought half the fleet of the Atlantic 42’s had - seems far fetched but he is a real person and that’s what he said - irrespective it pays to fear the worst and pay respect offshore.

 

[Morello]

Hi Broadhead, Please clarify on your statement that a couple died on a Chris White cat that flipped in a Chicago to Mac race. To the best of my knowledge a Chris White tri flipped during a Chicago to Mac race near Greys Reef. No fatalities. Also a few years later an Atlantic 42 capsized on Little Traverse Bay in northern Lake Michigan, Again no fatalities.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Mambo,

I did a delivery last month in the Gulf of Maine on a Corsair 37 carbon, and I've been on a pretty wicked up Gunboat 57 in the same time frame. I've also been on an Atlantic 57, though not sailed. I have to say, of the three for the use case you are describing, the Corsair 37 ticks all the boxes, at a fraction of the cost of a 50' performance cruising catamaran.

The Corsair 37 is quick; average speeds in the low teens are easily achieved under autopilot and white sails, and if you want to do 25kts with a full race crew on board you can (though I understand not mixing the two). We did 180nm, including a canal transit and a long motor through lobster pots exiting Deer Isle, in 24hours. This was three up with autohelm, and an average wind speed of 10kts dead downwind. A few days later, we did Woods Hole MA to Newport, RI (41nm) in under 4 hours with the screecher up, half reaching, half running in 15kts of breeze. We could have hoisted the A3 and shaved at least 30min off that time if needed.

You get two full staterooms on opposite ends of the hull, though only one shared head (for me a positive, one less to clean). Space outside for guests and toys is incredible. Safety at speed to me felt more like sailing a monohull than a performance multihull. Loads are very reasonable for 2, and manageable by 1. Sailing sensation is high; Olympic helms have praised that part of the boat. For a folding trimaran, I thought she was of above average stiffness, it didn't feel like there was any ama racking in 3'+ waves. I could see 8' waves causing concern, but the smaller 31's have done Transpacific and Transatlantic crossings, and the 37 is a much larger, safer boat for that. You can also bring the boat right into the beach, with an 18" draft, and stern anchor in secluded areas. If you need to trailer or ship the boat, it can be done.

The downside is probably the saloon area, it has space for 4, 6 if you squeeze, and the galley is smaller than I would like for long term cruising (i.e more than 1 week). I personally like an oven onboard, and you might want an icemaker+water maker in the tropics. I do think there is a way to fit these in without too much hassle, but of course weight is always a concern with a performance multihull.

The other big concern is apparently Corsair "damaged" the molds...so a Rapido 40 or 50 might be the better option if going new. Of course, I also like the TS5 for new, but the Corsair remains the least expensive option that checks 9 out of 10 boxes.

My personal downside to the Atlantic 57 is the galley down arrangement. Great at sea, less so at anchor. The Gunboat...well, I think a 48 is the better choice...the loads are sky high and as such these boats tend to demand care and require deep wallets to maintain.

On the insurance issue, it is definitely a problem, the underwriters are lumping all mulithulls in together (everything from 15' off-the-beach cats) to Lagoon 78's. They're seeing the insurance risk as too high given the Caribbean charter fleet decimation. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of creativity and explaining to them that your 50' performance multihull with full-time captain and/or professional sailor onboard isn't in the same risk category.

Hello F18,

Sounds like a fun ride. Was that Ian's boat by any chance? One knows that any boat he buys is going to have good performance. He doesn't relish going slow.

I started by looking at Tris. I contemplated a low freeboard, coastal hi- performance multi hull for coastal cruising. I would probably go for a Dragonfly 40 C, or a used Dragonfly 1200 (as an entry point). I am a huge admirer of the quality of their work and toyed with the idea of becoming an early customer for the 40C. But I paused and realized that I am starting to get the urge to go further afield.

Ian mentioned me helping him return his boat to LIS and if he asks of course I will say yes. I enjoy fast boats and I really enjoy his company. He has crewed for me a few times and is a talented sailor. Ian describes his F37 as "Great 2 couple glamping". I think it is more than that but not enough for me.

 

[Mambo Kings]

One factor that I am keenly aware of. I cannot rely on performance coming from ultra low weight. There is not a lot of point in my buying 2.8k kg F37 carbon and then installing fridge, water maker, solar and 1.5 - 2.0 k kg of gear. The Dragonfly C 40 delivers its performance from a combination of weight and size of rig and hull design. So it is a 4.8k Kg boat with a remarkable design payload of 3k kg. Many manufacturers lie about their dry weight but not Dragonfly. They are a builder who keep their promises and over deliver. It is an extremely nice boat built by a builder whose 3 generation family reputation is vested in every boat that leaves the door. I could talk myself into it.....but I dont think it is the right boat.

 

[Mambo Kings]

My personal downside to the Atlantic 57 is the galley down arrangement. Great at sea, less so at anchor. The Gunboat...well, I think a 48 is the better choice...the loads are sky high and as such these boats tend to demand care and require deep wallets to maintain.

I agree with comment about Atlantic's galley position. We like to cook, and Im not keen to be sweating down below while my guests are having cocktails on the deck. It is Chris White so you know there is a good reason. I dont know the reason but I suspect I would want to make the compromise and have the galley on the same level as the saloon.

The Gun Boat is out.
Rapido 50 is still in my peripheral vision. There is a lot to like about the concept. But it is still vaporware until I see the quality of a finished boat.

Remember I have my race boat. There is a difference between a fast passage speed and racing speed.

I am currently more interested in a used boat, outfitted by someone whose experience really contributed to the fitting out.

 

[Mambo Kings]

I am also not a fan of the (too many) arrogant idiots that have flipped F-boats and are destroying the trimaran insurance market.

Fancy running into you again. It has been a while.

 

[ProaSailor]

The Dragonfly C 40 delivers its performance from a combination of weight and size of rig and hull design. So it is a 4.8k Kg boat with a remarkable design payload of 3k kg.

Wow! Very impressive numbers:

Dragonfly 40

The Dragonfly 40 is available in four versions, the standard Touring version with self-tacking jib, the Ultimate version has a taller and more powerful rig and larger overlapping furling headsail for higher performance, the C Ultimate Carbon version with floats-, beams-, forward and aft...

dragonfly.dk

Nice interior too. Jens Quorning is a stand up guy, this would be a great boat for two couples.



Dragonfly 40C sneak peek, part 2
Dragonfly 40C sneak peek, part 3

P.S.

 

[Sidecar]

^^^^ FWIW, indicative Base Speeds (ie average speed) for C40 LWL 11.5m, SA 113m2 and Displ 4800kg (ie boat only ): 12.1 knots.

For those that like to see how speed decreases with payload increase:

Displ 5,800kg: 11.6 knots, 6,800 kg: 11.1 knots and 7,800kg: 10.7 knots.

 

[Wess]

Fancy running into you again. It has been a while.

Hi. Sounds like you are about to embark down an interesting new path. Lots of learnings on it. Good luck and let me know if I can help.