Chris White the new Atlantic 72 and follow-up of the capsized Atlantic 57 Leopard

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Member
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Kiel, Germany
If the topic is large cruising trimarans I always think of Dick Newick's Traveler 50 - http://dicknewickboats.com/Traveler/

I like nearly everything about that boat apart from the fact that there was only one built and it is on the wrong side of the globe for me. It also doesn't look like a Newick, which is a plus. :)

With unlimited funds I would have loved to get a custom 50 foot trimaran built, either that Newick design or something by Erik Lerouge. Finn is great as well, but still crazy expensive.

Paul
 

bushsailor

Anarchist
690
184
QLD Australia
It's actually pretty hard to get a big (as in width * length) multi weighted. Most travel lifts in our area that are wide enough for our old boat are rated for something like 200 tons. The accuracy of the weight cells used in that application is probably not really optimized for high resolution between 9.5 and 10.5 tons.

Paul
The best way is a crane and loadcell. Accurate and well worth it if you are spending big $ on a boat.
You are correct re the travel lift scales, often very inaccurate.
 

bushsailor

Anarchist
690
184
QLD Australia
Only tri that I can think of that would do the job well is a Rapido 60. Quite a bit quicker than a Atlantic 57 apparently. (there is a video somewhere of a Rapido 60 effable passing a 57 at roughly double the 57s speed in some race.)
 

mpenman

Member
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Pompano Beach
Only tri that I can think of that would do the job well is a Rapido 60. Quite a bit quicker than a Atlantic 57 apparently. (there is a video somewhere of a Rapido 60 effable passing a 57 at roughly double the 57s speed in some race.)
I'd like to see that video :).

The Rapido 60 is definitely an option if she is kept very, very and I stress very light. Quite hard on a true cruising boat.
If the 57 was serving cocktails on the aft deck, they may not have been racing;).

Put the same amount of stuff on the 57 and the tri and go out in 10 foot seas and a nice 20-25 knot breeze. I got my money on the shorter boat. They'll also have a nice washer for the brown shorts coming from the tri!!!!
 

Wess

Super Anarchist
My referring to my St Francis as a barge is true for me compared to the tri. I almost never helm the cat offshore where the tri was SO MUCH FUN but you would need to give up a LOT of cat endowed creature comforts.
I am really surprised that nobody picked up on this (above quote from Board) as it captures the issue very well. Somebody also used the expression "fast freight train" (I think in this thread) to describe the performance cruising cats. And that is the elephant in the room. I have yet to come across any cruising cat of any make or model that is as fun to helm as my trimaran (big or small or dinghy) is. If all I was doing was passage making I don't want our current trimaran as it can't move the freight. But I am sorry, if being honest, if I am going day-sailing I equally don't want a cruising cat be it a GB, Outremer, CW, TRT, etc (even if it has tillers) etc... as helming it can't move my heart like the tri can and I ain't dead yet. Before Board posted this (above) I was going to ask him if he was going day sailing is he taking his cat (St. Francis) or the tri (Skateaway)... I would have been shocked if he was taking the cat. Its a great boat for making miles, but come on its just not nearly as fun to sail as a (well designed) tri is as he noted above.

The more the mission is about making miles, get the cat. The more the mission is about making smiles, get the tri.
 
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CapDave

Member
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315
Sint Maarten
Only tri that I can think of that would do the job well is a Rapido 60. Quite a bit quicker than a Atlantic 57 apparently. (there is a video somewhere of a Rapido 60 effable passing a 57 at roughly double the 57s speed in some race.)
We saw that boat anchored in Woburn Bay in Grenada, which is a generally well sheltered spot but also gets some occasional bobble coming in from various directions. In any bobble Effable tossed and pitched and rocked the amas in and out of the water, it sure looked helluva uncomfortable, and loud too. We live on anchor, not doing it on a boat like that.
 

Veeger

Super Anarchist
Wess, I know what you're saying about helms on cats vs sailing a tri but...

It sorta depends on exactly WHAT one likes about 'good steering'. Fundamentally, I prefer a tiller over a wheel for that 'feel', that slight tug of a touch of weather helm and the quick, decisive response that comes from simply pushing (or pulling) the tiller to 'hard over' in the blink of an eye. Having a little wind in your hair (assuming you've got the hair) and that simple 'closeness' to the boat, the wind and the waves is pretty tough to beat.

Technically, I think my Mainecat 38 had the most amazing helm control and feel of ANY boat I've ever sailed with a wheel including a J 105 and a J120.. It was 3/4's of a turn Lock to Lock. Steering was fingertip, move the top of the wheel an inch or two, just like a tiller whether sailing upwind or down. But it wasn't a tiller, I wasn't 'outside' and it wasn't what I think most of us 'wish for' when we're describing the ultimate experience.

Ah, well. Soon I'll get to experience what having twin wheels and twin rudders on a monohull is like....

I'm already enjoying the pleasure, (yes, pleasure) of not caring about weight, what with a hefty genset and a 51# BBQ... getting installed.
 

CapDave

Member
390
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Sint Maarten
Thank you @CapDave and @mpenman

As mentioned the Atlantic 55/57 and the Outremer 51 have been on the short list for a couple of weeks.
The right way to determine if the attributes of the forward cockpit, or the tillers on the Outremer appeal to me are to sail in them. Im working on that. At the same time I am still pruning my list at a slightly faster pace than I am adding to it . But I cannot spend too long. Carpe Diem.
Youtube couple doesn't make a deal for A55 Javelin:

 
For example, in airplane world, many wings can be detached at the root. They are even more weight sensitive than high performance boats, so there are ways to make this work that don't add much weight. Time? Sure, but it still allows the boat to be transported over land, and I think with careful packaging, you can get a high volume 40' tri onto a slightly oversized trailer (road-legal esque).
You are absolutely correct from a structural perspective of course.

Our favorite places to sail are the baltic and the netherlands. Countless beautiful small places where you struggle to find a place for a 40 feet multi. May even struggle to enter the marina channel lock... Numerous places where you could enter but then end up being a major pain in the ass for everyone else.

Floats you can swing in without hassle and a centerboard that swings up when you sail on a mudflat in the waddenzee give you a true passepartout from Stockholm to Texel.
 
I agree. I want to be able to move at a good pace in 5-15 and feel safe in 30.

Windswept is a flat out racer that has been detuned and dressed in sheeps clothing but it is still a race boat. I have my race boats.
Start at an Outremer and work from there and you will understand my search.
A monohull is still not out of the question. Galacia, Boreal, Dashwood etc. but I think I can be almost as safe but faster with a worthy multihull....

Racing this weekend. Visiting a couple of cruising boats next week. There was an Outremer 51 that had been superbly fitted out that I started to like a lot but it is an ad that has not been taken down...sold.

Of course, Chris is selling his own boat. That is on the list to think about.

It is hard when folks post videos of the Dragonfly 40. My attraction to that boat is deeply visceral. My gut likes it but my head says it is probably not the right boat. It is my head that will have to deal with being on watch at 3 am with 300 miles to go, the breeze picking up to 30, the barometer dropping and a low moving towards me, so my head has a fairly significant vote.
I got sound advice from a Dutchie to buy the smallest boat that allows us to do the saiing we are actually doing not the kind we are dreaming of when sitting in a traffic jam.
 
I am really surprised that nobody picked up on this (above quote from Board) as it captures the issue very well. Somebody also used the expression "fast freight train" (I think in this thread) to describe the performance cruising cats. And that is the elephant in the room. I have yet to come across any cruising cat of any make or model that is as fun to helm as my trimaran (big or small or dinghy) is. If all I was doing was passage making I don't want our current trimaran as it can't move the freight. But I am sorry, if being honest, if I am going day-sailing I equally don't want a cruising cat be it a GB, Outremer, CW, TRT, etc (even if it has tillers) etc... as helming it can't move my heart like the tri can and I ain't dead yet. Before Board posted this (above) I was going to ask him if he was going day sailing is he taking his cat (St. Francis) or the tri (Skateaway)... I would have been shocked if he was taking the cat. Its a great boat for making miles, but come on its just not nearly as fun to sail as a (well designed) tri is as he noted above.

The more the mission is about making miles, get the cat. The more the mission is about making smiles, get the tri.
Good stuff.

My mission is a fast cruising boat. I will be moving freight and people in a purposeful way..
I have my race boats.....which for pure thrill will always trump a boat which has been compromised in any way for cruising.

It has been my experience, and is my philosophy, that if you want to race and to cruise, it is less expensive to have two boats, one dedicated to racing and one dedicated to cruising.
Put another way, if you have a "boat budget" (which lets face it, none of us are good at sticking to budget) and you want to race and cruise....dividing the budget between two boats will give you a better experience while both racing and cruising.

Racing does not get noticeably better as boats get larger, but cruising does. So I am content to race smaller boats and cruise in a larger boat.

My thesis breaks down every time I look at the Dragonfly, because it does go deliciously fast. I am trying not to fall into the trap of acquiring two additional boats: A Dragon fly for local short distance weekends or going to Maine and a cruising cat for heading to the Pacific or high latitudes. That would be a mistake and I am relying on my friends to stop me making that mistake.....but goddamn that is a well designed and built boat.

I still believe that, there is out there a fast safe cruising boat that will make me smile. The joy of sailing is important to me. It is a different joy from pure speed. It has to have feel, and a spot I can sail the boat from where I will be content to drive for a few hours before handing off to the autopilot.
 
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Wess

Super Anarchist
Wess, I know what you're saying about helms on cats vs sailing a tri but...

It sorta depends on exactly WHAT one likes about 'good steering'. Fundamentally, I prefer a tiller over a wheel for that 'feel', that slight tug of a touch of weather helm and the quick, decisive response that comes from simply pushing (or pulling) the tiller to 'hard over' in the blink of an eye. Having a little wind in your hair (assuming you've got the hair) and that simple 'closeness' to the boat, the wind and the waves is pretty tough to beat.

Technically, I think my Mainecat 38 had the most amazing helm control and feel of ANY boat I've ever sailed with a wheel including a J 105 and a J120.. It was 3/4's of a turn Lock to Lock. Steering was fingertip, move the top of the wheel an inch or two, just like a tiller whether sailing upwind or down. But it wasn't a tiller, I wasn't 'outside' and it wasn't what I think most of us 'wish for' when we're describing the ultimate experience.

Ah, well. Soon I'll get to experience what having twin wheels and twin rudders on a monohull is like....

I'm already enjoying the pleasure, (yes, pleasure) of not caring about weight, what with a hefty genset and a 51# BBQ... getting installed.
OMG, PM me. We have to talk. Whatever have you done LOL. If it makes you feel better the wife and I may have recently lusted after something akin to that but we are not selling the tri. We were considering a 4-way whatever the heck that is... o_O
 

toolbar

Member
278
63
Kiel, Germany
@MamboKing: If you can afford it, why don't your just get a Dragonfly 40 and see if it fits? Great boat. Resale value will be high if you won't keep it. It's certainly capable of going around the globe. If you really plan to go _high_ latitudes with real ice: none of the performance boats mentioned here are true "expedition, go-anywhere boats" that wouldn't mind getting stuck in an ice-shelf for 6 month.

Paul
 

mpenman

Member
245
227
Pompano Beach
I still believe that, there is out there a fast safe cruising boat that will make me smile. The joy of sailing is important to me. It is a different joy from pure speed. It has to have feel, and a spot I can sail the boat from where I will be content to drive for a few hours before handing off to the autopilot.
You are 100% correct in this.

I'm obviously biased and have already made my decision with regards to boat choices. I find being out in the elements and sailing being one of, if not the most important piece in sailing and cruising. If you don't enjoy sailing the boat, then I would not do it. Our setup is very responsive (more so than my f24 that I owned) and so I would choose a cruising boat that gives you the tactile feedback in return. Small changes in trim should be easily noticeable in how the boat performs. This should be true in both light and heavy air. That's why finding a boat that does this is so dang hard but so damn rewarding when and if you can make it happen.
 

Wess

Super Anarchist
The joy of sailing is important to me. It is a different joy from pure speed. It has to have feel, and a spot I can sail the boat from where I will be content to drive for a few hours before handing off to the autopilot.
Totally get it and agree. The joy of sailing is our mission #1. But really hard (been impossible for us) to find in a cruising cat. Consider if you can live with hydraulic steering. Zero feel obviously and for us its a flat out deal killer. But even some of the tiller driven boats just felt dead (my term). Hard to explain that as they were moving along at a nice clip but just didn't feel... lively. That was my wife's term (that it didn't feel lively) and that we both walked away time and time again feeling same is why we were giving up. Why buy a big boat again if we are going to lose the joy of sailing was a frequently discussion point. We eventually put it down to maybe "that's just what its gonna be in a bigger boat" until we got on a few larger tris at a friend and dealer's suggestion and were please to find... oh there it is again. That feels right.

For us it boiled down to a simple point... we refused to spend 7 figures on a boat that could only get us and our stuff there fast and comfortably (there being at least extended coastal) but didn't make us both smile when we drove it... didn't give us the joy of sailing. If it didn't make both us fight each other (or the auto-pilot) to be the one on the helm (including and maybe even especially in light air) we were not going to buy it no matter how fast or comfortable we would be getting somewhere. That we figured we could get from a plane ticket.
 
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socalrider

Super Anarchist
1,390
749
San Diego CA
This is a great thread. My budget & experience level is way way below what you guys are talking about but as my family got into cruising & we needed more space, after lots and lots of shopping I gave up on sailing entirely & got a trawler. Part of that was because of how hard it is to actually get anywhere under sail in SoCal, but the other part was that I realized the big tubs I was looking at (older 48-54' monohulls or older condo cats) just aren't much fun to sail, particularly in our lighter winds. So we have a 41' trawler for cruising and an Alerion 28 for daysailing in the bay.

I dream of a performance cruising cat that would be comfortable for the whole family, but it's a two order of magnitude price delta, and frankly it'd probably still be less comfortable than what we have now bashing NW up the coast (under power 95% of the time). Still salivate every time I see that CW72 on the end tie on Harbor Island... must work harder...
 

CapDave

Member
390
315
Sint Maarten
This is a great thread. My budget & experience level is way way below what you guys are talking about but as my family got into cruising & we needed more space, after lots and lots of shopping I gave up on sailing entirely & got a trawler. Part of that was because of how hard it is to actually get anywhere under sail in SoCal, but the other part was that I realized the big tubs I was looking at (older 48-54' monohulls or older condo cats) just aren't much fun to sail, particularly in our lighter winds. So we have a 41' trawler for cruising and an Alerion 28 for daysailing in the bay.

I dream of a performance cruising cat that would be comfortable for the whole family, but it's a two order of magnitude price delta, and frankly it'd probably still be less comfortable than what we have now bashing NW up the coast (under power 95% of the time). Still salivate every time I see that CW72 on the end tie on Harbor Island... must work harder...
Pretty sure there isn't a CW 72 in San Diego?? I think there's a 57 called Espiritu Santi.
 




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