Classic Yacht vs. Modern Performance Cruiser

born2sail.at

Member
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Vienna
Hi, 

recently I discussed with a friend how well a classic yacht, lets say a wooden 11 KR Yacht would perform against her modern counterpart a typical performance cruiser would do. First question is if we compare LOA, second question is if we compare the waterline. 

Unfortunately I have never sailed a wooden Yacht from that time period nor a modern performance cruiser. Nor has my friend. That makes it bit tough to come to a conclusion... 

So I think this question could be easily answered by sailors haven sailed more different boats than I have.
 

Fair winds! 

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,837
609
Evanston
Hi,
Unfortunately I have never sailed a wooden Yacht from that time period nor a modern performance cruiser. Nor has my friend. That makes it bit tough to come to a conclusion...
This makes for the best possible discussion.

Neither of you has enough information to properly form an opinion, you can still be discussing this 20 years from now, and may still be friends. If you come to a conclusion the discussion will be over and you will have to discuss something new, with the risk that the outcome might actually matter to one of you.... and that will kill that friendship.

I would recommend you retain your ignorance as much as possible.

 

born2sail.at

Member
80
14
Vienna
This makes for the best possible discussion.
That's why I ask in a forum to get even more unqualified opinions. Even better, opinions about questions nobody asked. 

Discussion is a bit harsh, we talked about boats. I know a bit about foiling, I know a bit about big steel trawlers, but I came to the end of my knowledge. I thought the best idea is to ask a question here so I can answer his question. What would your suggestion be? Buy both and sail it out? 

 

Veeger

Super Anarchist
An 11 KR (I found a yawl that fits this description but not familiar otherwise) vs a 'modern' , 'typical', 'performance' cruiser...

The older boat is heavier all around regardless of loa or lwl.  Slower to maneuver than a typical spade rudder/ fin keel modern cruiser.  The older boat has less interior volume for accommodations relative to the newer designs.  The older boat is likely to be a bit more comfortable in a sea or chop, but the overhangs can make her more susceptible to pitching (which sucks in a head sea).  Apart from that, preferences for maintenance, livability, cruising grounds, crew size,, etc will have more bearing on what is 'best'.  Only you can decide.  Sounds like with a somewhat limited experience of either, you'll only learn what you, personally, like after trying them out.  Odds are, you'll be happier with a more modern design (they're newer, brighter, more available, more bang for length overall, fewer maintenance headaches--hopefully)

Let us know what you learn.

 

born2sail.at

Member
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14
Vienna
Let us know what you learn.
Thank's for your answer. Well, I almost bought a 11KR Yacht but the state of the mahogany was beyond what I could afford to refit. So I know about the more obvious things like accommodations, you pay more in the harbor for less living space, you sail with more heel etc.

But I do not know if they are comparable in speed in most conditions compared with modern cruiser- racer sailboats. I hope that everyone has an imagination of what I mean with that.

With classic yacht I mean boats like the famous Dorade or S/Y Manitou. Typically yawls with large overhangs and probably the most beautiful boats ever made. 

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
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London, UK
Dorade raced the 2015 Fastnet, rating 1.003. 3 pips slower than a J105, which is 17’ 6” shorter. The J was just over an hour quicker on elapsed time - DH, with Stuart Childerley onboard, which helps. 

 

born2sail.at

Member
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Vienna
Dorade raced the 2015 Fastnet, rating 1.003. 3 pips slower than a J105, which is 17’ 6” shorter. The J was just over an hour quicker on elapsed time - DH, with Stuart Childerley onboard, which helps. 
Thanks, that helped. I was also just scrolling trough the Fastnet results. I would say the speed is somewhat comparable to a modern 35 to 42 feet boat. So in the non racing world a classic yacht is still a fast yacht if you don't mind paying for the extra length. 

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
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52’ of dock fees. 
4 berths. 
More varnish than you can shake a brush at. 

image.jpeg

 

El Borracho

Verified User
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Pacific Rim
Hi, 

recently I discussed with a friend how well a classic yacht, lets say a wooden 11 KR Yacht would perform against her modern counterpart a typical performance cruiser would do. First question is if we compare LOA, second question is if we compare the waterline. 

Unfortunately I have never sailed a wooden Yacht from that time period nor a modern performance cruiser. Nor has my friend. That makes it bit tough to come to a conclusion... 

So I think this question could be easily answered by sailors haven sailed more different boats than I have.
 

Fair winds! 
Are you racing? With handicaps? Match racing? Or cruising?

In the cases of handicap racing and cruising it makes no difference. Except  perhaps the varnish and maintenance penalties built into anything classic. 

 

Santanasailor

Charter Member. Scow Mafia
1,357
707
North Louisiana
Longer O/A

Shorter W/L

Narrower

Smaller

Heavier

Less sail

Less handy

Wetter

Much more, incomparably more beautiful
Modern boats with their plumb or Zumwalt destroyer bows, multiple bunks, extreme beams, double wheels et al, bowsprits and cruising spinnakers are what the current buyers seem to be asking for if not demanding.  And the many advantages are hard to deny.  

I still like a boat that pleases my eye.  I will not sail a boat that I hate the looks of.  Wrong I may be but Its my money and if I don’t like its looks, its going to remain someone else’s.

 

Santanasailor

Charter Member. Scow Mafia
1,357
707
North Louisiana
Why would anyone buy an expensive, ugly toy?
Interesting thought.  But has a simple answer(s) 

1.  Everyone has a different idea of what looks good.  Often going back to the time when a fellow or lady first developed an interest

2.  Tastes change.  Using myself as an example.  I always thought the CCA inspired boats were the bees knees (Think Finnisterre) Then I changed and really began to appreciate the appearance of the IOR boats.  (Think Pearson 40) Then Bruce Farr designed Gunboat Rangiriri, better looking IOR.  Still Love the topsides, hate the bottom sides of IOR boats.  Having done my fair share of keel checks, I just have to believe there was a better way.  But….Can’t get into plumb bows.  But then I never liked the plumb bowed boats of the 1800’s.  They sure do a good job of cutting through chop.  Now the Zumwalt bowed boats…..I take the Fifth Amendment.  

As far as keel checks, nothing like getting thrown off of the boat by a violent broach, then having the boat right itself, the spinnaker fill and you watch the keel zip by you.  Swimming back to the surface, you encourage the rest of the crew to dowse the spinnaker and come back to retrieve you.  

 
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mccroc

Anarchist
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Sydney
Over the last few years I have been lucky enough to have raced on a number of very different boats - from 24 foot and 28 foot gaffers to a 1924 Fife Cruising 9 metre, Gretel II, the 1970 AC challenger, and a 1960s Peter Cole metre inspired yacht. Also I have my own light displacement "sporty" yacht, and also raced a number of modern fast designs.
My experience is that the older classic metre type yachts are a joy to sail. However the faster they go, the bigger the hole in the water they dig. If trimmed correctly they will sail upwind without a finger on the helm,  yet they can take both arms and a foot to tack! Sir Jim Hardy was reputed to have said: "A 12 metre goes 8 knots - upwind, across the wind, and downwind". That's pretty true.

Upwind, when heeling, these yachts are very quick, and will sail high angles. We were doing 9 knots upwind on Gretel II with just a headsail. They reach pretty well too, but downwind a modern yacht, even much shorter, will leave them for dead. 

And of course, very little if any accomodation down below - the bigger the yacht, the more room down below, but there is probably more usable space on a Beneteau 40 than there is on Gretel II at 66 feet.

Aesthetically, there is no argument!

 

born2sail.at

Member
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14
Vienna
In the cases of handicap racing and cruising it makes no difference.
We where talking about cruising with the occasional afternoon race. I think at this point it is fair to say that the classic yachts where fast and still are in most conditions. One can not generalize that a modern performance cruiser is faster. It really depends and it doesn't matter at all when all but racing is more important. Right?

 




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