Construction of a Pogo 50

[tumbleweed314]

I bet a lot of people here remember the "Construction of a Pogo 12.50" thread by @shaggybaxter a few years back.  Well, the title is probably pretty self explanatory. The build of my Pogo 50 started today.  Happy to post progress picks and talk about the design decisions I made/still need to make if anyone is interested. 

I spent a couple years researching which boat I wanted to get. The design spec is pretty simple-- I want to push as far as possible on the performance end of the performance cruiser spectrum for a 50 foot boat.  Finding the right boat was not simple.  I narrowed down to the following boats before making the choice of the Pogo.  There's a million things that make a boat purchase decision, but the most important metric for me was power to weight ratio.  I wanted a cruising boat that approached the P/W ratio of a TP 52.  Yikes!  The summary is below, but I attached the excel spreadsheet in case anyone else things along these lines.  





Boat


Upwing Sail:displacement ratio (m2/kg)




Pogo 50


                   1.81




Pogo 50- 2M taller mast + running backstays


                   1.94




TP52


                   2.35




Clubswan 50


                   1.86




J/121


                   1.73




FC53


                   1.78




j/88


                   2.11




J/133


                   1.43




xP 44


                   1.24




xp50(deep)


                   1.28




xp55 deep


                   1.04




Jeanneau 49 ds (my old boat)


                   0.96










View attachment boat_comparison.xlsx

 

[apophenia]

Congrats on your new boat. I'm looking forward to following it's construction.

Why did you focus on Sail Area : Displacement in the absence of Displacement : Length?

 

[El Borracho]

Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

 

[Alaris]

I think I speak for a lot of us who will never go through this process when I say please share every part of the process you’ve already been through and have yet to do. Congrats on your new boat. Look forward to seeing it. The 50 is a hell of a boat.

 

[tumbleweed314]

@apophenia  I've been very happy with the 50 ft Jenneau, in terms of a balance between waterline, availability at harbors, and maintainability, so in my mind that number was a constant. 

Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

I agree. I think of Cruising, like I think of ultralight backpacking. So, the design follows that:  Only 1 head. Electric induction range, rather than a propane system. No genset. Lithium Batteries. There's 3 cabins, but the forward one is pipe berths, and the aft 2 are more comfort oriented.  One of the things I like about the Pogo interior is that there is very minimal trim/headliner, cutting down on weight.  I toyed with no windlass, but decided to keep it, and just go with underpowered.   Interestingly the single head can cause issues while heeling on passage, so it will be oriented fore & aft.  

The only creature comfort that I decided to keep was a very small A/C for just the main salon, with no ducting.  In theory it's small enough to run off an inverter on the batteries, along with a hydrogenerator while on passage.  In practice... I guess I'll see! 

I think I speak for a lot of us who will never go through this process when I say please share every part of the process you’ve already been through and have yet to do. Congrats on your new boat. Look forward to seeing it. The 50 is a hell of a boat.

Well, in that case, here's the first photo. This is the molds in place in the workshop earlier today. They've been waxed, and the keel cutout has been boxed in.  It looks like a 50 foot surfboard! 

 

[tumbleweed314]

I think I speak for a lot of us who will never go through this process when I say please share every part of the process you’ve already been through and have yet to do. Congrats on your new boat. Look forward to seeing it. The 50 is a hell of a boat.

So, actually talking about what I've been through already. 

There's the research, and talking to a bunch of different owners about their experiences with various builders.  Plus, and this might not be obvious, but the most important thing I did in terms of understanding background was upgrading my Jeanneau 49DS.  It's a tub of a cruising boat, but we got 2nd in section and 9th overall in the Mac last year after 5 steady years of upgrades.  Making all of those upgrades helped me form opinions about how to make a boat go fast, and also how to do it with minimal rating penalties in ORR.  

They put me in touch with another owner, and I flew to Maine to sail on his boat for a day. Then it became less about spreadsheets and more about just loving the boat.

All of this gave me the confidence that I needed to ask them to modify the sail plan.  Their first response was polite, but the essence of it was... uh... you're not exactly a marine architect.  But, they listened.  Once I told them that I think it's possible if we add running backstays (there's no fixed backstay on the Pogo, just swept spreaders), they realized that I was very serious about the performance mod.  So, we were able to get two more meters on the mast, and maintain the same weight aloft by going with a higher modulus carbon, carbon boom,  and carbon spreaders. (for the bargain price of three times what I sold my old Catalina 28 for) 

After the rig, the other design specs are largely aren't as critical-- I'm sticking with their philosophy that the #1 jib is all or nothing on a Karver, but the inner stay can be fractionally furled. I opted for three speed winches, because there's going to be a hell of a lot of line on the spin sheets.  The only two weird things I asked for was in deck LED lights flush on the foredeck pointed up at the inside of the jib so I can see telltales while racing overnight, and a removable bench that can be fitted into the companionway as a place to sit while using autopilot on non-race passages. 

 

[JL92S]

Congratulations on your new build! Are you planning to solely cruise or race as well? If you really want to add power in the light airs you can look at getting a J0 or MH0 for added grunt. Did you go for the lift keel or fixed keel?

 

[tumbleweed314]

Congratulations on your new build! Are you planning to solely cruise or race as well? If you really want to add power in the light airs you can look at getting a J0 or MH0 for added grunt. Did you go for the lift keel or fixed keel?

Mostly offshore racing. I'm sailing it back to the US next summer from France. So, that will be cruising, other than the ARC.  

MH0-- So, I'll be getting Masthead Code 65%,also known as a Large roach headsail(LRH), or a tweener.  This code sail is BIG! 183 m2. 

Most code zeros have a mid girth of greater than 75% of the foot, any less than that and it can't be classified a spinnaker. But a lot of the rating rules in the last couple years are allowing for as low as 55% of mid girth on a code sail.  The penalty goes up exponentially as the mid girth goes down. So, for a 65% sail, the penalty isn't that bad.  I've used one of these for 2 years, and they can point quite high. Not as high as a jib, but there's a special feeling of having a code sail on, and seeing the apparent wind so far forward. 

Here's a video of my current one in action earlier this season. It's pretty amazing how high these things point. (go to 45 seconds to see the code 65): 

 

[The Dark Knight]

 I opted for three speed winches, because there's going to be a hell of a lot of line on the spin sheets. 

Why not get the Karver (Pontos) extra speed winches?

https://www.karver-systems.com/en/?option=com_opencart&Itemid=263&route=product/category&path=7022

 

[tumbleweed314]

Why not get the Karver (Pontos) extra speed winches?

https://www.karver-systems.com/en/?option=com_opencart&Itemid=263&route=product/category&path=7022

These look awesome!  I might just do that. 

 

[Panoramix]

Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

IME, that isn't accurate. Extra weight matters on a boat with a narrow waterplane that will "sink" fast which will alter its hull lines. On a wide boat like this, the boat will plane later and be a bit slower upwind but its seaworthiness and its behaviour won't be affected that much as you need a lot of weight to "sink" it. Also you are less likely to store crap on deck which is the surest way to slow down a boat (weight up hgh which is the worst kind of weight + windage).

 

[El Borracho]

IME, that isn't accurate. Extra weight matters on a boat with a narrow waterplane that will "sink" fast which will alter its hull lines. On a wide boat like this, the boat will plane later and be a bit slower upwind but its seaworthiness and its behaviour won't be affected that much as you need a lot of weight to "sink" it. Also you are less likely to store crap on deck which is the surest way to slow down a boat (weight up hgh which is the worst kind of weight + windage).

Hmmm....then why bother with carbon fibre? ;-)

That might be true considering wetted area alone. Would take some maths. However the displacement of water is independent of hull shape. Every kilo added is another kilo of seawater that must be "pumped from the bow to the stern" to move the hull forward. Or in planing mode each extra kilo must be lifted which directly increases induced drag.

I don't think any naval architect had in mind cargo capacity when considering the advantages of the POGO hull.

The OP seems to have it under control...except for that small air conditioner idea IMHO.

 

[Panoramix]

Hmmm....then why bother with carbon fibre? ;-)

That might be true considering wetted area alone. Would take some maths. However the displacement of water is independent of hull shape. Every kilo added is another kilo of seawater that must be "pumped from the bow to the stern" to move the hull forward. Or in planing mode each extra kilo must be lifted which directly increases induced drag.

I don't think any naval architect had in mind cargo capacity when considering the advantages of the POGO hull.

The OP seems to have it under control...except for that small air conditioner idea IMHO.

Carbon fibre because every gram makes the boat slower!

My point was just that overloading a wide boat isn't as bad as overloading a narrow boat that will see its floatation line rise quicker.

 

[Jackdaw]

Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

I’ve sailed a lot on a pogo 12.5 absolutely loaded down with crap; gear, stores, sails, miles chain, etc, and it was still a rocket ship. Damn thing planed On a white-sail close reach. Bigger denominator on the 50.  Amazing boats. 

 

[tumbleweed314]

The OP seems to have it under control...except for that small air conditioner idea IMHO.

You're probably right. The AC doesn't match the rest of the design spec.  That said, it will prove valuable in indoctrinating my 5yo daughter that the more spent time on the boat, the better, which shifts the vote at home 2-1 in my favor.   

I might actually remove it for racing season.  

 

[Alaris]

You're probably right. The AC doesn't match the rest of the design spec.  That said, it will prove valuable in indoctrinating my 5yo daughter that the more spent time on the boat, the better, which shifts the vote at home 2-1 in my favor.   

I might actually remove it for racing season.  

I doubt it is worth the effort to remove it. On a boat that size a small AC is unlikely to have any meaningful effect on performance. 

 

[Miffy]

You're probably right. The AC doesn't match the rest of the design spec.  That said, it will prove valuable in indoctrinating my 5yo daughter that the more spent time on the boat, the better, which shifts the vote at home 2-1 in my favor.   

I might actually remove it for racing season.  

Don’t worry about it - ppl can always knock your business as if their personal choices > yours. You opted to have one marine head. One marine head weighs more than any marine AC system you will end up having for a Pogo 50. 

Don’t let your generous thread become a place where ppl ruin your actual exp. 

 

[Captain Ketamine]

Hi tumbleweed. Thanks for starting this journey. Try and contact Shaggy Baxter, (and if possible other owners), He will be a good resource. I was lucky enough to get around the Pogo factory a few years ago. Great fun.

Make sure you get it commissioned by the manufacturer in France before bringing it back to wherever you will eventually sail. That way you can ensure systems are working, before hand over. We had a bloke try to commission his 12.5 over here, and even with a very experienced team it cost almost as much as the original boat. It was a litany of stuff ups. 
All the best. CK.

 

[tumbleweed314]

Make sure you get it commissioned by the manufacturer in France before bringing it back to wherever you will eventually sail. That way you can ensure systems are working, before hand over. We had a bloke try to commission his 12.5 over here, and even with a very experienced team it cost almost as much as the original boat. It was a litany of stuff ups. 
All the best. CK.

For sure. One of the advantages of sailing it back is that the sea trials happen before/at delivery.