COP27 climate summit

[sparau]

Not trying to make up problems. You make sweeping comments that stopping all single use plastics wouldn't be hard. So no matter the plastic needles, no more N95 masks. A new system of storing medices, both liquid and solid. All other options requiring vast amounts of extra energy and resources. Our shipping concept would need to be reinvented as the quick and easy pallet wrap would be gone. I guess we could go back to better individual boxes,bcargo neta and triple the labour required. After all there is so much unemployment at the moment.

Then there are those that rely on 'single use' plastic to hold essential things like water in underdeveloped countries.

But to thse in a nice neighborhood, spare income to pay all the extra costs involved, of course it is not a problem.

You make some good points, especially about the 0.003% of plastic that is for medical use... d'oh

I'm not arguing that you might need to wrap the pallet in a renewable resource and to change may require a few bucks. As first world countries in the global north we are often exporting both the machines and know how to the global south, are you suggesting it would be significantly more expensive to create systems that can use plastics made from plant based cellulose? Or a factory making that is more expensive than the filthy polluting ones using oil?

I'm not buying it, are you emotionally invested in the greenwashing of the plastics industry?

 

[3to1]

Add to our issues the plastics industry, I didn't realise the recycle triangle logo was just part of the plastics industry's greenwashing, as we all know you can't really recycle plastic, you can at best downcycle it.
But hey, if the oceans are full of BPA and antimony leeching plastic it's our fault yeah!
I mean you didn't "recycle" it... Keep *insert country* beautiful !

Excellent video, we need a real ban on single use non compostable plastic, just outright ban its manufacture or import.

had me utterly fooled for decades.

I'm not buying it, are you emotionally invested in the greenwashing of the plastics industry?

excellent question, and I'd bet he is. fk, he's probably doing it here to try to rationalize (to others and especially himself) his politics and philosophies.
him and his ilk come to these eco threads and flail for a bit of existential traction. twisted shit...

 

[sparau]

Then there are those that rely on 'single use' plastic to hold essential things like water in underdeveloped countries.

But to thse in a nice neighborhood, spare income to pay all the extra costs involved, of course it is not a problem.

Ah, I see the issue, I'm Australian and being reasonably well educated with a well rounded knowledge of science and the environment I already make purchasing decisions based on the less destructive option.
As opposed to the modern American mindset, binary, rather than the answer is either black or white, left or right I see better, worse, moves toward a better solution.
For instance Australia legislating or even banning non compostable single use plastics would not affect the Yemeni using a 20l water jug for 5 years as I do.

 

[billsreef]

It's the point of sale type single use plastics that need to go. What I see floating around Biscayne Bay and offshore are largely plastic bags, followed by plastic drink cups, fast food containers, straws, etc.

 

[Gissie]

You make some good points, especially about the 0.003% of plastic that is for medical use... d'oh

I'm not arguing that you might need to wrap the pallet in a renewable resource and to change may require a few bucks. As first world countries in the global north we are often exporting both the machines and know how to the global south, are you suggesting it would be significantly more expensive to create systems that can use plastics made from plant based cellulose? Or a factory making that is more expensive than the filthy polluting ones using oil?

I'm not buying it, are you emotionally invested in the greenwashing of the plastics industry?

If it wasn't significantly more expensive to change from plastics it would have happened. Or perhaps the technology is still under development.

Not trying to greenwash anything, just get annoyed with such simplistic statements as we could stop using most single use plastics immediately. It is not true and doing so will cost more and be far more energy intensive. All good for the reasonably well off, yet another dump on those struggling.

 

[Alan H]

And replace this MOST with what?

Plus, who gets to decide what is important and what can be ditched? The wealthy person who can afford the increased cost or the poor who can't?

You know, it's those same poor people who do already, and will increasingly bear the brunt of the plastic mess....along with most other environmental messes we've created.

 

[sparau]

If it wasn't significantly more expensive to change from plastics it would have happened. Or perhaps the technology is still under development.

Not trying to greenwash anything, just get annoyed with such simplistic statements as we could stop using most single use plastics immediately. It is not true and doing so will cost more and be far more energy intensive. All good for the reasonably well off, yet another dump on those struggling.

First paragraph: why would it already have happened? What would be the mechanism for change? Altruism?

Second: "simplistic statements" - lol, like it would cost more and the poor will bear the brunt of it. Oookkkaaay, find some evidence for that. Evidence like the mess both politically and environmentally oil extraction has caused in Equatorial Guinea or the pollution by plastics manufacturing causing 'cancer alley' in USA...

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

You know, it's those same poor people who do already, and will increasingly bear the brunt of the plastic mess....along with most other environmental messes we've created.

That's true, and it's unfortunate.

A clean environment in combination with a high population density REQUIRES abundant cheap energy. Else the poor end up on the shitty end.

But this still doesn't address the issue of single use plastics really. Yes, replacing single-use bags is pretty straightforward - kinda. I used to use mine to line my kitchen bin, now I buy bags for this. Not really a win. I use the paper bags in my wood fire when they get ripped, which doesn't take long.

But what about single use syringes and the like? I'm old enough to remember the doctor's surgery with the autoclave and fucking big needles. Let's not go back there.

FKT

 

[Gissie]

First paragraph: why would it already have happened? What would be the mechanism for change? Altruism?

Second: "simplistic statements" - lol, like it would cost more and the poor will bear the brunt of it. Oookkkaaay, find some evidence for that. Evidence like the mess both politically and environmentally oil extraction has caused in Equatorial Guinea or the pollution by plastics manufacturing causing 'cancer alley' in USA...

If replacements for plastic was a similar price the world would have changed. Altruism is never a serious reason.

So instead we need to force the price of plastics up to make alternatives cost effective. Which may not make you lose sleep, what's a few dollars more here and there to you. To those at the bottom it does matter, although they are used to being shit on. Force up the price of oil to encourage more EV's, great idea, unless you can only afford the old shitter than gets shit mileage.

But as you point out, they are already being dumped on so why should we care about throwing some more shit in their direction. After all it was probably their stupid life choices that made them poor anyway.

 

[Gissie]

You know, it's those same poor people who do already, and will increasingly bear the brunt of the plastic mess....along with most other environmental messes we've created.

So this makes it okay to let this carry on? Let's have shit on a poor person day?

 

[Not for nothing]

The problem is that people live on the premises it's what I WANT not what I need,
This is a hard thing to change considering we've bombarded with Advertising 24/7. on what you should buy to live the American dream, with bigger cars, yachts, houses and clothes (the fashion of the week) or keeping up with the Jones.
I think COP27 was a joke, with more lobbyist.
And now the new term "Greenwashing"

I love what Greta just said to that Tate asshole,
Thunberg shot back, encouraging Tate to “enlighten her” by sending the list to the email [email protected].
Also he's been arrested since then! Karma?

 

[sparau]

If replacements for plastic was a similar price the world would have changed. Altruism is never a serious reason.

So instead we need to force the price of plastics up to make alternatives cost effective. Which may not make you lose sleep, what's a few dollars more here and there to you. To those at the bottom it does matter, although they are used to being shit on. Force up the price of oil to encourage more EV's, great idea, unless you can only afford the old shitter than gets shit mileage.

But as you point out, they are already being dumped on so why should we care about throwing some more shit in their direction. After all it was probably their stupid life choices that made them poor anyway.

You mangle arguments and geography together into a word salad to suit your pre conceived notions of both the world and what I was saying.
I directly asked you for factual information how shifting to renewable plastics would cause the poor to go hungry as you claim.

Here are some facts, costings for different types of plastics, please extrapolate how (your example) wrapping a pallet would cause the poor to be shat on more, please confine yourself to either a: knowledge or b: cites of someone else knowledge.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...leum-based-and-bio-plastics-37_tbl1_336853452

 

[sparau]

...Force up the price of oil to encourage more EV's, great idea, unless you can only afford the old shitter than gets shit mileage.

But as you point out, they are already being dumped on so why should we care about throwing some more shit in their direction. After all it was probably their stupid life choices that made them poor anyway.

I'm going to separate out the petrol EV concept to try and keep your rants within boundaries and ignore your showing your inner self in regards to the poor...

So here is an article from 1980 where American cars are getting 30+ mpg.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...testing/5101176d-f73f-4c23-9886-04cb5f365a40/

Here is an article showing a 2022 Toyota Corolla makes 34mpg.
https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/corolla

What the fuck are you talking about, as to forcing up prices, see Ukraine thread, see increased costs of getting oil...

 

[Alan H]

That's true, and it's unfortunate.

A clean environment in combination with a high population density REQUIRES abundant cheap energy. Else the poor end up on the shitty end.

But this still doesn't address the issue of single use plastics really. Yes, replacing single-use bags is pretty straightforward - kinda. I used to use mine to line my kitchen bin, now I buy bags for this. Not really a win. I use the paper bags in my wood fire when they get ripped, which doesn't take long.

But what about single use syringes and the like? I'm old enough to remember the doctor's surgery with the autoclave and fucking big needles. Let's not go back there.

FKT

There are a few uses where I can't see plastics getting replaced and you just listed one of them; medical syringes. Those should probably be melted down to get sterilized and then be "downcycled" into long-use stuff.
The killer stuff is the single-use and both the really huge pieces and the small stuff.

Toothbrushes can be made out of wood.
Bottles can be made out of glass, and were made out of glass for decades. Bottle lids can be made out of metal.
and so on.

 

[Not for nothing]

There are a few uses where I can't see plastics getting replaced and you just listed one of them; medical syringes. Those should probably be melted down to get sterilized and then be "downcycled" into long-use stuff.
The killer stuff is the single-use and both the really huge pieces and the small stuff.

Toothbrushes can be made out of wood.
Bottles can be made out of glass, and were made out of glass for decades. Bottle lids can be made out of metal.
and so on.

I heard a story that beach glass is on the endangered species list,
I had a friend on LI, that walked the beach till he found blue beach glass, the walk would get longer and longer, so in the fall he threw blue bottles on the rocks offshore, in the spring wow there was blue beach glass, problem solved.
so going back to glass, replenishes the beaches and then creates more glass bottles,
Fun fact here in Florida the sand to replenish the beaches comes from the Bahama's, at a price.
I think Florida's east coast spends about a billion dollars a year on beaches.

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

Bottles can be made out of glass, and were made out of glass for decades. Bottle lids can be made out of metal.
and so on.

Most Australian States now have bottle deposit laws to enforce recycling of plastic and glass bottles. Needless to say, the manufacturers & bottlers hated it and fought it tooth and nail.

Fuck them, that is a clear case of public good. And it provides some income to those who want to collect the bottles etc at the expense of the careless/wasteful types.

As for being bombarded with advertising, bullshit. You only get bombarded if you're prepared to put up with it. I see very, very little advertising.

But - I don't own a TV or waste my time on Fauxbook etc, and I run ad-blocking software in my browser. Result, little advertising to ignore.

FKT

 

[Gissie]

You mangle arguments and geography together into a word salad to suit your pre conceived notions of both the world and what I was saying.
I directly asked you for factual information how shifting to renewable plastics would cause the poor to go hungry as you claim.

Here are some facts, costings for different types of plastics, please extrapolate how (your example) wrapping a pallet would cause the poor to be shat on more, please confine yourself to either a: knowledge or b: cites of someone else knowledge.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...leum-based-and-bio-plastics-37_tbl1_336853452

You claim I talk in a word salad, then twist them to sound more dramatic. I have never claimed the poor would go hungry, just that the extra costs to rid the world of MOST single use plastics immediately (your word) would impact the poor to a much greater extent than it would impact people like yourself.

You responded with the fact they are already badly impacted by our use of plastics. This gives the clear impression that, as they are already suffering, what's the problem with a bit more. An attitude that is not uncommon among those pushing for immediate action when there are no real alternatives.

 

[Gissie]

I'm going to separate out the petrol EV concept to try and keep your rants within boundaries and ignore your showing your inner self in regards to the poor...

So here is an article from 1980 where American cars are getting 30+ mpg.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...testing/5101176d-f73f-4c23-9886-04cb5f365a40/

Here is an article showing a 2022 Toyota Corolla makes 34mpg.
https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/corolla

What the fuck are you talking about, as to forcing up prices, see Ukraine thread, see increased costs of getting oil...

Do you really believe this a good argument? The new Corolla is around 50% heavier than its older version, so you are trying the old apple and oranges argument.

Then again, perhaps you think the poor person, driving to work in their '82 shitter, will be still getting the original mileage so why would he be complaining.

You must work in marketing...

 

[phill_nz]

But what about single use syringes and the like? I'm old enough to remember the doctor's surgery with the autoclave and fucking big needles. Let's not go back there.

not a good argument
yes part of the change to providing single use syringes made of plastic was also providing single use needles
that was the reason needles went from almost blunt knitting size down to sewing size

we can still go back to glass syringes and keep the ( small sharp )single use needles

 

[Ishmael]

Having been a consumer of such for the last 18 months, I can confidently say there is a huge amount of waste in the medical field. The amount of single-use plastic I went through when I was on home IV was amazing. To their credit, by the time of my second foray into IV land, I would say the waste was reduced by at least 50%. And that's in the space of less than a year.
The big problem is medical waste is unsorted, so the stuff that is legitimately in the hazardous waste stream is not separated from the 90% that isn't, so it all goes in the same bin.