Craigslist Finds

WCB

Super Anarchist
4,405
863
Park City, UT
Maybe that would be the thing to do. Aggregate seven people who want one and then do a one stop pick up. I was going to hire Chris Allen/Dude Drives to collect them and bring them to Park City but the future fleet members still want the Melges 15 so I can't argue the point. I might take a boat if somebody is gathering them. I can give you the email address of the guy getting rid of them if you want. PM me.
 

WCB

Super Anarchist
4,405
863
Park City, UT

WCB

Super Anarchist
4,405
863
Park City, UT
Flying Dutchman on FB Marketplace in Denver, CO. for $1500. FB Marketplace is quickly becoming the go to place for Craigslist Finds...which is a little weird. FD in CO for $1,500

Screen Shot 2022-08-22 at 8.39.05 PM.png
 

EYESAILOR

Super Anarchist
3,532
1,959

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,287
9,617
Eastern NC
Flying Dutchman on FB Marketplace in Denver, CO. for $1500. FB Marketplace is quickly becoming the go to place for Craigslist Finds...which is a little weird. FD in CO for $1,500

Looks great except for the bench seats... an Advance?

I look on Facebook sometimes but their search function is very badly crippled, it seems to just be a device to shove more advertising at me. Any hints?

I did find this, almost at random...


could be considered the anti-Flying Dutchman, it looks like a dory fitted up to sail (and we know what a bad idea that is). Looks cool though!
 

WCB

Super Anarchist
4,405
863
Park City, UT
They need a much bigger spinnaker. Probably an assym.
They have an assym available but when they race against a symmetrical the assyms lose out. I raced in the Nationals in Newport, RI a few years ago and any gains by the assyms were eliminated on the downwinds. Though the chute again may be too small.
 

WCB

Super Anarchist
4,405
863
Park City, UT
Looks great except for the bench seats... an Advance?

I look on Facebook sometimes but their search function is very badly crippled, it seems to just be a device to shove more advertising at me. Any hints?

I did find this, almost at random...


could be considered the anti-Flying Dutchman, it looks like a dory fitted up to sail (and we know what a bad idea that is). Looks cool though!
I don't use any magic. I usually put the boat in that I may be looking for followed by the word sail or sailboat and once it has tried to find exactly what you're after, it gives you lots of options that fulfill that secondary search word and you end up with all kinds of goodies hidden in there but tons of junk too.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
They have an assym available but when they race against a symmetrical the assyms lose out. I raced in the Nationals in Newport, RI a few years ago and any gains by the assyms were eliminated on the downwinds. Though the chute again may be too small.
Yep, too heavy for an asym. Watched a few folks try to convert several different syms boats to asyms and other than the 505 conversions and V15 addition, it has always failed because the boat is too heavy and VMG drops. Proving the adage that pigs do not actually fly.

Barely use FB anymore, such a trash dump.
 

eliboat

Super Anarchist
2,237
621
Yep, too heavy for an asym. Watched a few folks try to convert several different syms boats to asyms and other than the 505 conversions and V15 addition, it has always failed because the boat is too heavy and VMG drops. Proving the adage that pigs do not actually fly.

Barely use FB anymore, such a trash dump.
The 110 weighs 910 lbs (class minimum) and is easily constructed lighter both out of plywood and in composite. That gives it a displacement length ratio of 24…. Which is very light. By comparison, a J70, which carries an Asail by design has a DLR of 91. By your logic, a J70 should have a symmetric spinnaker.

Having sailed 110s quite a bit for the last couple of decades (along with all manner of other boats from skiffs to classic yachts), I can say that the 110 goes downwind quite well both with the original spinnaker and with theclass approved Asail. I won the Nationals using an Asail, so it is competitive with the symmetric on a W/L course, but there is no room for error. We have a masthead ASail for handicap racing that is substantially quicker than either the class approved Asail or the symmetrical. Since you can go DDW by the Lee quite well in a 1110 with the Symmetrical, you have to be perfect with your angles to beat it vmg sailing.

Despite being designed in 1939, with the 225 (a proportionally large 110 at 36’) a few years earlier than that, this is a hull form that planes easily and readily. As far as I know, foredeck shuffle is the only person I’m aware of that calls the 110 a dog.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
A place I used to live has J/80's at a school rigged with sym and asym spinakers for the purpose of teaching both. Some of us took them out and tried them against each other with both sails and it was found that until the boat planed surfed, it was faster with the symmetrical. This is due to how heavy the boat is. With the SA/D and D/L of the J/70 in similar territory I would expect similar results. Asyms are often on boats because they are much easier to sail with and the crew work is less intense, not because they are faster. And before you comment that a 70 has a faster rating than a 80, it's a bummer rating. I've finished too many short distance and sausage races with 80's beating 70's boat for boat or very close to each other. Still the 70 is 1.5 meter shorter and is a trailer sailor with an inefficient keel so finishing next to an 80 is a win.

The point is that it would require a lot of extra sail area downwind to move the VMG needle far enough to make an asym worth while. I'd go asym because I'm tired of the extra work that a sym requires and I do not want to rig another boat like I had to with my last 505 and all of the added expense, complexity, and maintenance a sym requires on a double pole versus an asym. Asyms are easier and cheaper but speed is dependent on the boat.
 
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eliboat

Super Anarchist
2,237
621
A place I used to live has J/80's at a school rigged with sym and asym spinakers for the purpose of teaching both. Some of us took them out and tried them against each other with both sails and it was found that until the boat planed surfed, it was faster with the symmetrical. This is due to how heavy the boat is. With the SA/D and D/L of the J/70 in similar territory I would expect similar results. Asyms are often on boats because they are much easier to sail with and the crew work is less intense, not because they are faster. And before you comment that a 70 has a faster rating than a 80, it's a bummer rating. I've finished too many short distance and sausage races with 80's beating 70's boat for boat or very close to each other. Still the 70 is 1.5 meter shorter and is a trailer sailor with an inefficient keel so finishing next to an 80 is a win.

The point is that it would require a lot of extra sail area downwind to move the VMG needle far enough to make an asym worth while. I'd go asym because I'm tired of the extra work that a sym requires and I do not want to rig another boat like I had to with my last 505 and all of the added expense, complexity, and maintenance a sym requires on a double pole versus an asym. Asyms are easier and cheaper but speed is dependent on the boat.
It’s always tricky to race an Asail vs a Symmetric on a lighter boat actually. You have to be bang on with the Asail to make it work. For all the reasons you state, in addition to the fact that it’s usually more fun, I prefer the Asail. Sailing more distance is sailing more distance and knowing where your vmg is greatest is tough. It’s easy to sail too high (going fast!.. it away from the mark) and most people in boats like the 110 where you have a choice of sails, but are more accustomed to the symmetrical, tend to sail way too deep to make the Asail work. I hear you on the J80, but I will say that I’ve definitely planed in an 80. It’s planing but it feels like a bus, and you know probably nothing will go wrong, as opposed to the same scenario on an international canoe.
 

Foredeck Shuffle

More of a Stoic Cynic, Anarchy Sounds Exhausting
I hear you on the J80, but I will say that I’ve definitely planed in an 80. It’s planing but it feels like a bus, and you know probably nothing will go wrong, as opposed to the same scenario on an international canoe.
I'll concede to being very pedantic here about the technical aspects of planing and I am very much posting about the technical and not challenging your experience. What feels like planing to me has been corrected with a more proper definition hammered into me by two different naval architect engineers I sailed with for over a decade.

When a boat pushes water to the sides and a hole is appearing directly behind the stern with a hump of water behind the hole due to water rushing in to fill that hole, it's surfing and not planing per the physics definition of displacement. The hole and hump show that water was displaced and refilled as the vessel moved through the water. Planing is not only passing the bow wave but also riding up on top of the water. Pushing water to the sides while being faster than the bow wave is partial displacement mode, aka surfing. Very few boats plane. This is why the D/L or more appropriately, the displacement to flat'ish hull surface area is a better way to identify the probability of a planing hull.

Complicated summary is that leaving hull speed displacement mode is not a cliff, more of an exponential model on an X/Y chart. As a boat moves faster it builds hydrodynamic lift and a portion of the hull begins leaving the water further reducing drag and allowing faster speeds. The hole behind the boat shows that the boat is separating from displacement and the stern is beginning to rise up to the static water level, the bow beginning to do so first.

Now consider a small multi-hull that moves at speeds well beyond what is considered displacement mode (Reynolds number calculated based on hull length) before it rides over its bow wave or shows the hole/hump in its wake. How is a multi-hull effortlessly moving into what is called planing mode while displaying none of the common nomenclature?

This is better left to someone with more information so I looked around a little and could not find a decent white paper but did find this new'ish article that in summary declares that planing should never be used as a technical term because it implies a specific behavior when the action of a boat moving through water is much more dynamic and should be considered in phases and the word planing used to describe an experience, not what the boat does. I think I like it much better than what the NA's were banging on about years ago.


There is a long conversation about this in the Australian Skiff thread about what makes a boat a skiff that addresses this topic as well and includes Mr. Bethwaite who has some elegant explanations.
 

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