Craigslist - Not mocking

Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
6,242
1,720
Canada
Sometimes people draw a distinction between de-bonding of core to skin and de-lamination of the skin itself. I am sure PVC core materials such as divynicell don't rot or spread moisture as fast as balsa, but moisture is still not supposed to be in there and it can still cause problems such as progressive destruction of core/skin bond or whatever. All cored boats need to manage moisture intrusion into the core. Also, it is imossible to build a light rigid boat without either a core material or a large amount of stringers and other reinforcement on the inside of the hull.
How do surveyors find this kind of problem?  I’ve heard of spongy feeling balsa cored decks that you can feel when stepping on them.  Do they use moisture meters in common problem areas, I.e., penetrations, and then draw likely conclusions based on that?

 

mckenzie.keith

Aspiring Anarchist
712
211
Santa Cruz
How do surveyors find this kind of problem?  I’ve heard of spongy feeling balsa cored decks that you can feel when stepping on them.  Do they use moisture meters in common problem areas, I.e., penetrations, and then draw likely conclusions based on that?
Hammer tapping will reveal debonding and also damaged core. The hammer will sound distinctly deader on debonded areas. I am not sure if moisture in pvc foam core will produce an audible difference but it might. Certainly, if it progresses to the point of debonding the core the surveyor will pick it up by sound. Moisture meters are designed for wood, but I think watching changes in the reading as you move back and forth near a through-hole might clue you in to a leakage problem with a foam core. And there is thermal testing, too. That might reveal moisture penetration problems also. I don't know much about thermal testing (or really, any of this... but I do know first-hand that debonded core and bad core sounds much different than solid and bonded core).

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,332
9,642
Eastern NC
How do surveyors find this kind of problem?  I’ve heard of spongy feeling balsa cored decks that you can feel when stepping on them.  Do they use moisture meters in common problem areas, I.e., penetrations, and then draw likely conclusions based on that?
Hammer tapping will reveal debonding and also damaged core. The hammer will sound distinctly deader on debonded areas. I am not sure if moisture in pvc foam core will produce an audible difference but it might. Certainly, if it progresses to the point of debonding the core the surveyor will pick it up by sound. Moisture meters are designed for wood, but I think watching changes in the reading as you move back and forth near a through-hole might clue you in to a leakage problem with a foam core. And there is thermal testing, too. That might reveal moisture penetration problems also. I don't know much about thermal testing (or really, any of this... but I do know first-hand that debonded core and bad core sounds much different than solid and bonded core).
A moisture meter has it's uses, but it looks for water not air. Rotted balsa core may be dried out but still a major fail. Delamination is also dry.

The key to both tap/sounding and moisture meter readings is to cover a wide area. Start right next to the gun'l, tap three or 4 times in a spot, move 6 inches in a row, tap again. Go 6 or 8 feet (whatever is convenient to reach), then move down or across 6 inches and tap/sound another row. Keep it up , row after row. giving yourself some overlap.

The best guy I've seen do this, had sticky-notes that he would plant on spots that sounded "different." Then he'd go back witha  fairly long row of taps, 3 or 4 feet, to find the edge of the failure; then do another row a couple of inches over for the next corresponding point. This way you map out the region where something is wrong with the laminate.

A boat hull/deck is a great percussion instrument BTW

- DSK

 

accnick

Super Anarchist
3,242
2,264
In the AC 50 and AC 72 America's Cup cats, I've watched shore teams tap-test every square inch of the hulls on a near-daily basis after sailing, and every time there has been any stress on the hulls from any type of incident, such as a nosedive or capsize.

Of course, you would hope a cruising boat would be built with a little more margin for error.

I've never owned a boat with a cored hull, and would want a really thorough survey on any cored-hull boat I was considering, particularly if it is more than a few years old. Age is not your friend in this case.

I would be really reluctant to even look at an older balsa-cored hull, although that is just a personal prejudice rather than the result of any real first-hand experience. Lots of quality brands have used balsa coring for hulls.

Cored superstructure is less problematic, in that it isn't immersed in water and doesn't typically get the same type of loading in use, such as pounding into waves.

 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
27,268
5,176
Kent Island!
In the AC 50 and AC 72 America's Cup cats, I've watched shore teams tap-test every square inch of the hulls on a near-daily basis after sailing, and every time there has been any stress on the hulls from any type of incident, such as a nosedive or capsize.

Of course, you would hope a cruising boat would be built with a little more margin for error.

I've never owned a boat with a cored hull, and would want a really thorough survey on any cored-hull boat I was considering, particularly if it is more than a few years old. Age is not your friend in this case.

I would be really reluctant to even look at an older balsa-cored hull, although that is just a personal prejudice rather than the result of any real first-hand experience. Lots of quality brands have used balsa coring for hulls.

Cored superstructure is less problematic, in that it isn't immersed in water and doesn't typically get the same type of loading in use, such as pounding into waves.
Balsa core can be quite good at isolating damage. Some kinds of foam core can pretty much have the entire core dissolve into mush from one pinhole leak.

NFW would I buy a cored hull boat without a good survey. Goes for decks too ;)

 

SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
68,787
12,411
Great Wet North
FWIW I have rarely seen a balsa cored deck without at least some problem ares but I have never seen a balsa hull with any.

Penetrations are the problem, not the fact that it is a cored laminate.

My current boat is all foam core, old, raced hard for much of its life and neglected for the rest but has zero wetness or delam.

It would be my choice, no contest, over balsa.

 

kinardly

Super Anarchist
With foam core, wicking of penetrated moisture can occur if the kerf cuts in the foam aren't sealed with resin during the layup. The unsealed cuts wick up water through capillarity. This, I understand, is common on pre-resin infusion J boats and also the reason those hulls are lighter than their infusion molded sister ships. I would just assume some penetration and be prepared to deal with it. And, yeah, if the deck is really bad you will know it when you walk on it and it will feel like walking on a memory foam mattress.

 

Hukilau

Member
412
185
Branford, CT
C&C 24 for a boat buck.  I sailed on my friend's C&C 24 a few times, and was always impressed with its speed and stability.  Looks like it's in decent shape so long as you don't want to cruise (but I do like the standard mattress stuffed into the v-berth shape; why has no one else ever thought of that?).  If you have your own outboard engine, this could be a nice find for someone.

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/d/providence-sailboat-24-cc-take-it-away/7479364533.html

 

Hukilau

Member
412
185
Branford, CT
I'm hittin' the jackpot on Craig's List today: 

One of my all time favorite boats.  I prefer the sloop version, but there's no boat prettier boat to my eyes than the Seafarer 31.  Makes my heart go pitter patter.  The ad says the engine ran great in 2011, so I'm a little worried there, but if I were in the market, I'd be over there in a heartbeat to take a look.  And I'm just a bit peeved that the photographer decided not to focus any of the pictures.  Is it really that difficult to take a clear picture?

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/d/chelsea-seafarer-yawl-31/7478896036.html

00O0O_bRXIco0FTKPz_0CI0t2_1200x900.jpg


 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
44,332
9,642
Eastern NC
I'm hittin' the jackpot on Craig's List today: 

One of my all time favorite boats.  I prefer the sloop version, but there's no boat prettier boat to my eyes than the Seafarer 31.  Makes my heart go pitter patter.  The ad says the engine ran great in 2011, so I'm a little worried there, but if I were in the market, I'd be over there in a heartbeat to take a look.  And I'm just a bit peeved that the photographer decided not to focus any of the pictures.  Is it really that difficult to take a clear picture?

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/d/chelsea-seafarer-yawl-31/7478896036.html

That's a nice boat... peak of 1940s technology, to be sure, but they are pretty and they sail well. A neighbor of mine had one, sloop rigged. It would be great as a yawl.

Looks like you could spend a lot of money updating that boat. They don't mention the age of the sails, which is a bad sign.

- DSK

 

Santanasailor

Charter Member. Scow Mafia
1,357
707
North Louisiana
I'm hittin' the jackpot on Craig's List today: 

One of my all time favorite boats.  I prefer the sloop version, but there's no boat prettier boat to my eyes than the Seafarer 31.  Makes my heart go pitter patter.  The ad says the engine ran great in 2011, so I'm a little worried there, but if I were in the market, I'd be over there in a heartbeat to take a look.  And I'm just a bit peeved that the photographer decided not to focus any of the pictures.  Is it really that difficult to take a clear picture?

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/d/chelsea-seafarer-yawl-31/7478896036.html

At the listed price, she may be worth the restoration costs.  She is a pretty one.  And being a Yawl, very unique in these days.  I would love to give her a try, but alas, not to be.  

 

py26129

Super Anarchist
2,855
193
Montreal
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Santanasailor

Charter Member. Scow Mafia
1,357
707
North Louisiana
Here’s an even cheaper one.  But looks to need a bit more attention:

https://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/boa/d/sailboat-seafarer-31-fiberglass/7484336517.html
It was once noted to me by a kindly yacht broker that the pictures often make a boat look better than she actually is

That said, looking at these pictures, I am thinking that the owner, in order to entice me to purchase this “boat,” should make me his best offer.  

That would be his best offer to PAY ME to take this off of his hands and remove it from his premises.  I would say starting bids would be somewhere between 10K and 50K.  Actually, I think $50,000.00 sounds about right.  (After all, I do need to have some profit in this venture). But, I might accept $49,999.99 if I am in a good mood.  

I prefer cash.

 




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