Cruising a Beneteau 40.7

bay_cloud

New member
36
11
SF Bay area
I've always been fascinated by the keep-pan vs stick built methods, pros and cons. My last boat was an O'Day 23-2. Slow, but shallow draft was nice. 2.5 feet meant i could anchor away from everyone else in the SF bay. Liner pan built. I bonded the pan to the hull below the chain plates (maybe ~0.2 Sq ft each side, then also below the companionway, and behind (probably >1sq ft each side). The boat was totally different afterwards. Stiffened it up massively and it was easy to feel that when going over waves.

My current boat, a much much faster Legend 40.5 seems quite stiff, but since it has a pan I plan to do the same thing, even if it requires cutting access holes.

I would do this with any pan built boat that I bought.
 

Kiwi Clipper

Member
85
54
When I was growing up, keels were viewed as big boards that stopped sideslipping because of their broad area. We went through a period of "slant back" keels, shaped that way because fish fins are shaped that way. At slower speeds air craft wings are flat on the bottom but curved on the top to create lift. At high speeds, the wings become foils with equal lift on each side. I don't know exactly when it came to be known that keels were foils that would work like aircraft wings. But when it happened then began experiments with the shapes that would be most efficient. Like all wings, at very slow speeds, the foil doesn't work. Then with the development of high strength, light weight materials ... carbon ... even more extreme shapes were possible, and we learned that the foil could even take the place of the ballast/keel weight. We learned that because of the density of water, foils in the water have much more power than foils in the air. The idea of foiling emerged.
Through this process the basic character of keels was transformed. Deeper keels with bottom weight , shorter fore and aft length and tear drop shapes have meant that boats could sail especially to windward, far better than ever before. Even for cruisers the ability to move more quickly to avoid bad weather or to avoid a windward shore in a storm, add to the safety of the boat.
But there have been trade offs, because very long shallow keels have longer connections to the hull. The deeper keels are engineered to sail and deal with the structural issues that sailing can create. The new keels can even handle some grounding, collision and other stresses, maybe better than many of the older boats. But it's important for sailors to recognize and respect the limitations of these keels.
We are not, after all, like the boy who hates his new toy because when he beats on it with his hammer, it breaks.
 

Kiwi Clipper

Member
85
54
I've always been fascinated by the keep-pan vs stick built methods, pros and cons. My last boat was an O'Day 23-2. Slow, but shallow draft was nice. 2.5 feet meant i could anchor away from everyone else in the SF bay. Liner pan built. I bonded the pan to the hull below the chain plates (maybe ~0.2 Sq ft each side, then also below the companionway, and behind (probably >1sq ft each side). The boat was totally different afterwards. Stiffened it up massively and it was easy to feel that when going over waves.

My current boat, a much much faster Legend 40.5 seems quite stiff, but since it has a pan I plan to do the same thing, even if it requires cutting access holes.

I would do this with any pan built boat that I bought.
Bay Cloud, the design of the keels of the Beneteaus and I would guess most others, involves an assumption that the frame and pan are already bonded to the hull in order to spread the loads and stresses. Without the frame/pan, no way the hull is strong enough to deal withh the stresses caused by the keel. In fact as Zonker has indicated the very design of the pan/frame layup, is done with the keel stresses in mind. But it is true that there could be damage that would weaken the pan/frame or separate it from the hull.
 

slug zitski

Super Anarchist
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worldwide
Boats are designed to be able to sit on their keels when hauled out, with stands keeping them upright. Why would this be significantly more different?
As the water goes out the boat alternately grounds out then refloats

Pounding

This nonsense can go on for 15 or twenty minute

Very hard on the hull and structure

Avoid at all cost
 

bay_cloud

New member
36
11
SF Bay area
Bay Cloud, the design of the keels of the Beneteaus and I would guess most others, involves an assumption that the frame and pan are already bonded to the hull in order to spread the loads and stresses. Without the frame/pan, no way the hull is strong enough to deal withh the stresses caused by the keel. In fact as Zonker has indicated the very design of the pan/frame layup, is done with the keel stresses in mind. But it is true that there could be damage that would weaken the pan/frame or separate it from the hull.
Sure but I think it was even mentioned in this thread that some connect the pan with dollops of bonding material. On my old boat I found out that more bonding meant a much stiffer boat
 

kinardly

Super Anarchist
Sure but I think it was even mentioned in this thread that some connect the pan with dollops of bonding material. On my old boat I found out that more bonding meant a much stiffer boat
I suspect that if gaps already existed into which your secondary “dollops” could be introduced, then the pan wasn't properly bonded in the first place. Plexus is supposed to be a pretty strong bonding adhesive to accommodate sailing loads on the keel but I suspect, much like epoxy, it can be brittle when subjected to shock type shear loads encountered in a grounding. More goop isn’t going to solve that.
 

Kiwi Clipper

Member
85
54
I was looking at a review of the Beneteau 47.7 which was the first of the .7 series designed after the 40.7. Found this intereresting comment by a reviewer at that time:
"Since Beneteau were criticised for their use or inner tray mouldings for large performance/racing boats, things have changed considerably. The First range now uses latticework mouldings to provide the structural matrix within the hull.
Unlike their predecessors, these liners have no floors between the longitudinal and transverse members. which means each element can be bonded and glassed into the hull. The hull laminate is more sophisticated, too, with a combination of chopped strand mat and woven rovings providing a solid laminate." The reviewer credited was a Malcolm White.
I think after the 47.7 came the 36.7 then the 44.7. But then, I think I've heard here that the 36.7 was done the same as the 40.7. Wonder if Zonker or anyone else has any knowledge regarding this statement?
 

MauiPunter

Will sail for food
I was looking at a review of the Beneteau 47.7 which was the first of the .7 series designed after the 40.7. Found this intereresting comment by a reviewer at that time:
"Since Beneteau were criticised for their use or inner tray mouldings for large performance/racing boats, things have changed considerably. The First range now uses latticework mouldings to provide the structural matrix within the hull.
Unlike their predecessors, these liners have no floors between the longitudinal and transverse members. which means each element can be bonded and glassed into the hull. The hull laminate is more sophisticated, too, with a combination of chopped strand mat and woven rovings providing a solid laminate." The reviewer credited was a Malcolm White.
I think after the 47.7 came the 36.7 then the 44.7. But then, I think I've heard here that the 36.7 was done the same as the 40.7. Wonder if Zonker or anyone else has any knowledge regarding this statement?

This is how the larger Hanses are made (>40'). The grid is glassed directly to the hull with large wide thick metal plates for the keel bolts. Makes for a very stiff hull and some grounding resistance comparatively.
 

tane

Anarchist
951
273
the great french designer Guy Ribadeau-Dumas once said something to the effect:
"...planes are made for flying & sailboats for sailing, not for some eventual accident..." or similar.
Much as I would prefer different solutions than the ones so widespread in yacht production (saildrives, grid liners, wheel steering, swept-back spreaders, wide cockpits, fractional rigs,...) there comes a point when one has to make compromises - & go sailing
 

tane

Anarchist
951
273
...or D. Casey/L. Heckler in "Sensible cruising, the Thoreau approach to cruising":
" The ideal boat is not the one you dream about, it is the one that takes you out there..."
Served us well, very well indeed.
I like to call it "the French approach", versus "the German approach" of endlessly philosophizing & searching for the elusive "ideal cruising boat"
 

kinardly

Super Anarchist
This week I learned, much to my surprise, that a lot of the First 36.7s were made in South Carolina. I had been under the impression that all those Farr and Frers designed Firsts were made in France and my perception was the French built boats were superior to the Beneteau America Oceanis line. Anybody care to comment?
 

Kiwi Clipper

Member
85
54
Hi Everyone:
I have completed my assessment of using my racing 40.7 as a cruising boat with a lot of help from anarchists. These are changes to the boat that I concluded, would be helpful.
1. The rig should be fairly recent. My boat was built in 2006 so I replaced the rod rigging with dyform (compact wire.) The reason for the switch is that it is impossible to keep track of the rod rigging. One recommendation is to take down the rig, disassemble the parts, then xray all the ends to be sure they aren't cracking, every five years! Then the next part is that in the Pacific, you cannot make or order replacement parts anywhere but the US Mainland, Australia or New Zealand. Not even Hawaii. Dyform is open and easy to inspect and replace.
2. Need to add dodger, a bimini top for the skipper and another for the crew: One problem: The boom is too low to allow standup space under these, so move the boom up a few inches; now change the mainsail. This obviously eliminates the boat from class racing.
3. Add windlass and a lot more anchor chain. Then you also need an anchor roller that extends forward of the bow to protect the nearly plumb bow from anchor damage as it goes up and down. In a boat with a fine entry like the 40.7 the forward weight is not an attractive idea to a person with racing genes.
4. Add a wind vane with a rudder that can serve as an auxiliary rudder. The rudder of a 40.7 is quite stout and not going anywhere unless grounded or hit something while sailing. But a substitute rudder is recommended, so putting one on the stern with a wind vane operation seemed most practical.
5. Jib roller furler. This is so useful we had previously added one to use, even for racing.
6. At least one electric winch. We added a lewmar 45 and the first time out I was afraid the crew would wear it out, it was so useful. For the halyards, for the jib sheets, for the jib roller furler especially when needed to partially furl when sailing.
7. About the keel issue. Per Zonker, know the boat's history only a relatively violent past grounding event is concerning; but everyone should inspect the inside structure for separations from the hull, problems with the keel bolts, or tears at the corners or joints of the structural grid inside the boat. Leaks and cracks in the hull near the keel or the rudder are concerning. Otherwise the 40.7 is a strong boat and should be no concern.
8. More batteries and a charging system, wind or solar, would be highly helpful. Take enough water and fuel.
The 40.7 is a great boat, and would be a fun boat to take on a cruise for the sailing. I've read so many accounts of cruisers who wanted to avoid upwind sailing...for me I look forward to it!
But it is my guess that adding all of these features would not increase the market value of the boat because most of the users still are racing and doing coastal cruising, not blue water cruising.
So with an attractive alternative at hand, I have reluctantly decided to part with my 40.7 and acquire a Beneteau 47.7 which is already mostly set up for cruising and has many of these features already installed.
 
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accnick

Super Anarchist
3,515
2,510
Hi Everyone:
I have completed my assessment of using my racing 40.7 as a cruising boat with a lot of help from anarchists. These are changes to the boat that I concluded, would be helpful.
1. The rig should be fairly recent. My boat was built in 2006 so I replaced the rod rigging with dyform (compact wire.) The reason for the switch is that it is impossible to keep track of the rod rigging. One recommendation is to take down the rig, disassemble the parts, then xray all the ends to be sure they aren't cracking, every five years! Then the next part is that in the Pacific, you cannot make or order replacement parts anywhere but the US Mainland, Australia or New Zealand. Not even Hawaii. Dyform is open and easy to inspect and replace.
2. Need to add dodger, a bimini top for the skipper and another for the crew: One problem: The boom is too low to allow standup space under these, so move the boom up a few inches; now change the mainsail. This obviously eliminates the boat from class racing.
3. Add windlass and a lot more anchor chain. Then you also need an anchor roller that extends forward of the bow to protect the nearly plumb bow from anchor damage as it goes up and down. In a boat with a fine entry like the 40.7 the forward weight is not an attractive idea to a person with racing genes.
4. Add a wind vane with a rudder that can serve as an auxiliary rudder. The rudder of a 40.7 is quite stout and not going anywhere unless grounded or hit something while sailing. But a substitute rudder is recommended, so putting one on the stern with a wind vane operation seemed most practical.
5. Jib roller furler. This is so useful we had previously added one to use, even for racing.
6. At least one electric winch. We added a lewmar 45 and the first time out I was afraid the crew would wear it out, it was so useful. For the halyards, for the jib sheets, for the jib roller furler especially when needed to partially furl when sailing.
7. About the keel issue. Per Zonker, know the boat's history only a relatively violent past grounding event is concerning; but everyone should inspect the inside structure for separations from the hull, problems with the keel bolts, or tears at the corners or joints of the structural grid inside the boat. Leaks and cracks in the hull near the keel or the rudder are concerning. Otherwise the 40.7 is a strong boat and should be no concern.
8. More batteries and a charging system, wind or solar, would be highly helpful. Take enough water and fuel.
The 40.7 is a great boat, and would be a fun boat to take on a cruise for the sailing. I've read so many accounts of cruisers who wanted to avoid upwind sailing...for me I look forward to it!
But it is my guess that adding all of these features would not increase the market value of the boat because most of the users still are racing and doing coastal cruising, not blue water cruising.
So with an attractive alternative at hand, I have reluctantly decided to part with my 40.7 and acquire a Beneteau 47.7 which is already mostly set up for cruising and has many of these features already installed.
That is probably a good decision.
 

slug zitski

Super Anarchist
7,090
1,466
worldwide
Hi Everyone:
I have completed my assessment of using my racing 40.7 as a cruising boat with a lot of help from anarchists. These are changes to the boat that I concluded, would be helpful.
1. The rig should be fairly recent. My boat was built in 2006 so I replaced the rod rigging with dyform (compact wire.) The reason for the switch is that it is impossible to keep track of the rod rigging. One recommendation is to take down the rig, disassemble the parts, then xray all the ends to be sure they aren't cracking, every five years! Then the next part is that in the Pacific, you cannot make or order replacement parts anywhere but the US Mainland, Australia or New Zealand. Not even Hawaii. Dyform is open and easy to inspect and replace.
2. Need to add dodger, a bimini top for the skipper and another for the crew: One problem: The boom is too low to allow standup space under these, so move the boom up a few inches; now change the mainsail. This obviously eliminates the boat from class racing.
3. Add windlass and a lot more anchor chain. Then you also need an anchor roller that extends forward of the bow to protect the nearly plumb bow from anchor damage as it goes up and down. In a boat with a fine entry like the 40.7 the forward weight is not an attractive idea to a person with racing genes.
4. Add a wind vane with a rudder that can serve as an auxiliary rudder. The rudder of a 40.7 is quite stout and not going anywhere unless grounded or hit something while sailing. But a substitute rudder is recommended, so putting one on the stern with a wind vane operation seemed most practical.
5. Jib roller furler. This is so useful we had previously added one to use, even for racing.
6. At least one electric winch. We added a lewmar 45 and the first time out I was afraid the crew would wear it out, it was so useful. For the halyards, for the jib sheets, for the jib roller furler especially when needed to partially furl when sailing.
7. About the keel issue. Per Zonker, know the boat's history only a relatively violent past grounding event is concerning; but everyone should inspect the inside structure for separations from the hull, problems with the keel bolts, or tears at the corners or joints of the structural grid inside the boat. Leaks and cracks in the hull near the keel or the rudder are concerning. Otherwise the 40.7 is a strong boat and should be no concern.
8. More batteries and a charging system, wind or solar, would be highly helpful. Take enough water and fuel.
The 40.7 is a great boat, and would be a fun boat to take on a cruise for the sailing. I've read so many accounts of cruisers who wanted to avoid upwind sailing...for me I look forward to it!
But it is my guess that adding all of these features would not increase the market value of the boat because most of the users still are racing and doing coastal cruising, not blue water cruising.
So with an attractive alternative at hand, I have reluctantly decided to part with my 40.7 and acquire a Beneteau 47.7 which is already mostly set up for cruising and has many of these features already installed.
Big boat , big tanks …you can cover more miles

you need to come up with some kinda dodger solution..that cockpit it really exposed

perhaps put jammers on the double ended mainsheet so that you can free up a winch

somekinda outboard leeds for reaching

the fold down transom will be a trouble maker

some folks remove the door on that style boat then store it at home

 

Kiwi Clipper

Member
85
54
Big boat , big tanks …you can cover more miles

you need to come up with some kinda dodger solution..that cockpit it really exposed

perhaps put jammers on the double ended mainsheet so that you can free up a winch

somekinda outboard leeds for reaching

the fold down transom will be a trouble maker

some folks remove the door on that style boat then store it at home

Thanks Slug. Both the 47.7 and 40.7 come with jammers for both mainsheet ends. The 47.7 I am getting already has a dodger and you are right, even at the dock the sun protection makes the boat much more liveable. For racing I removed the wood toe rail on the stern half of my 40.7 and replaced with track for the exact reason you mentioned, outboard sheeting. Huge difference. Still thinking about how to solve the problem on the 47.7. Haven't heard before of trouble with the fold down swim step. I'll look at it.
The 47.7 is Garbo. tall rig, deep keel, a lot more storage and bigger open living space will make time on board much more liveable. But original rod rigging from year 2000; for a long cruise it has to be replaced. Many other deferred maintenance issues. Even doing a lot of the work myself, total cost will be up there. But sails like a dream; handles the waves in open water. High hopes.
 
As a 40.7 owner I am in the process of converting my boat from a racing boat to a short and long distance cruiser. Empty the many sails out of the fore peak and actually use the bunks. Electric winch for the halyards, bimini top; dodger... And more.
What's somewhat unique about the 40.7 is that more than 700 were made; but the design is now more than 20 years old and inevitably many of the boats will convert from racer to cruiser. BTW 700 may make the 40.7 the most popular racer cruiser ever, in its size range. One endearing fact is that the 40.7 is constructed with a solid fiberglass hull ... not a foam or balsa and glass sandwich. And I like it's lively performance because good sailing is still fun, even though we will be cruising.
But every boat has challenges as well as opportunities. There have been discussions about various elements of the boat but I thought it would be great to pull as many as possible into one spot.
For example: I am wondering, has anyone ever put a carbon rig on a 40.7 to reduce weight aloft and smooth out its motion through the water?
Given the location of the Main sheet, what designs have people come up with for a bimini that will shade the entire cockpit without interfering with the mainsail?
Which windlass are people using? And has anyone developed a foward strut for the anchor and chain?
Hoping there are guys out there with answers and experiences that can help all of us....
For sun protection on a boat with an end-boom mainsheet we have rigged a simple rectangular awning which goes from the mast to the backstay and the sides tie down to the lifelines. You have to adjust how you rig it depending on the point of sail. You also have to take it down to tack or jibe, AND it does not shade the helm entirely, but since we need it mostly on longer legs and ocean passages when we're usually reclining on the seats while the autopilot or windvane steers it gives us adequate protection and it is easily put up or taken down.
 

slug zitski

Super Anarchist
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1,466
worldwide
For sun protection on a boat with an end-boom mainsheet we have rigged a simple rectangular awning which goes from the mast to the backstay and the sides tie down to the lifelines. You have to adjust how you rig it depending on the point of sail. You also have to take it down to tack or jibe, AND it does not shade the helm entirely, but since we need it mostly on longer legs and ocean passages when we're usually reclining on the seats while the autopilot or windvane steers it gives us adequate protection and it is easily put up or taken down.
That works well…many diffent solutions

boats with a split backstay , running backstays offer many solutions

the beauty of the ketch rig is a mizzen trade winds sailing awning…
also a valuable rain water collector that’s easy to use

ive often thought about a simple aerodynamic umbrella for downwind sailing under roasting sun

I’ve seen a few umbrella solutions on super yachts , but not small craft

CD8179EF-AB68-48D7-BD51-530E73BCAD33.png
 
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