Dave's perfect sailboat

Their solution was an explosion proof containment box.

In the boat case the battery chemistry is lithium iron phosphate - quite different from the Boeing version. Hence no explosion proof box required.

 

Dave Cooper

Member
398
27
Edmonds, WA
Thanks for the link to the Nigel Calder articles.

My progress on the electric drive:

I have been talking with Electric Yacht about a Volvo diesel DC generator hooked to a Lifeline 48 volt battery bank hooked to two Electric Yacht 48 volt motors hooked to a Volvo saildrive. Right now I would be leaning to two QT 25 water cooled electric motors running at 48v with a D2 40 4cyl Volvo running the DC generator.

Jim Betts is talking to Oceanvolt about what they can put together. We have not heard back yet.

As for the EY system, my thinking is that if it doesn't work, or it works but not like I would like, I can take the electric motors off the sail drive and hook the 40 hp Volvo diesel up to the Volvo sail drive and write the whole off as an experiment. I would keep the battery bank but reconfigure it to 24 volts with two alternators running off the engine. Worst case scenario is I lose some money but end up with a very good but conventional diesel/saildrive propulsion system. Since I am planning on building the engine room from scratch it should not be too hard to just glass in the engine pan from Volvo and then soft mount the diesel generator just aft of that.

EY has told me that you can plumb the water cooled electric motor into the same cooling system as the engine. I would plan on running the engine at about 2200 rpm to charge the batteries. That, with the correct size pulleys, should give me plenty of recharging power.

According to Dave Gerr's formulas, I should have no problem running 7.5 kts and have a top speed of 8 kts.

http://www.psychosnail.com/boatspeedcalculator.aspx

I used a 38.17 LWL and #20,000 to determine the power required. It seems very reasonable to me. Add to that the boat is narrow and low freeboard/low cabin trunk and I would think it makes a very small hole in the water and thru the air.

EY told me that in their experience a sail drive is about 15% more efficient than an angled shaft drive.

I just see a huge upside if it works and a small downside if it doesn't. I see the weak link as the batteries, but the ones that I have chosen might have a 7-8 year life, and who knows where batteries will be by then?

I don't think I would do this on an offshore yacht yet, but the potential is great. And since this is a Puget Sound boat, why not try?

If I can afford it I am going to give it a shot and I will keep everyone posted.

 
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Dave Cooper

Member
398
27
Edmonds, WA
Talking about a small hole in the water made me think of this rendering by Jody. Might have been posted before but I like it so much I will put it up again. That is not quite the keel we will use as Bob has not designed it, but there will be a bulb on the bottom. I have more pictures [renderings] if anyone is interested. The boat looks so small but it is 44' LOA

CP44 52.png

 
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Dave Cooper

Member
398
27
Edmonds, WA
cooper-perry-39.9-sail-plan-for-web-site-rotate-e1422678775185-701x1024.jpg Also just for fun this is the sail plan for the boat we gave up on since the bids came back more than I could afford. That was before I learned I was going to lose my retirement property to Sound Transit. After that we stretched the boat to 44' and changed the interior. I pulled this off website:

theperfectsailboat.com

 
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zedboy

Member
257
0
Eastern Med
I have more pictures [renderings] if anyone is interested.
You have to ask?!

Awesome website, very informative about all aspects of the process. Thanks especially for the part about costs - In a million years I wouldn't have thought it could be so reasonable. Really in spitting range for anyone who would consider a new boat in this size range.

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,019
180
London, UK
I'm a bit behind in reading my Pro Boats. Which issue?
In the Buffer Zone by Nigel Calder, June/July 2014, p. 34

Lithium-ion batteries offer the promise of more efficient and ultimately cheaper onboard energy and electric-propulsion systems, but with risks.

Marine Hybrids Come of Age by Nigel Calder, OCTOBER/NOVEMBER 2010

http://www.marina42.net/uploads/27/Beneteau_ZF_Hybrid_Engine.pdf

And these:

Nigel Calder peeks into the future of your boat’s engine – and you may be surprised what he sees by Deborah Bach on February 15, 2012, Three Sheets Northwest

http://threesheetsnw.com/blog/2012/02/nigel-calder-peeks-into-the-future-of-your-boats-engine-and-you-may-be-surprised-what-he-sees/

The Science of Hybrid Propulsion: The Great Debate by NIGEL CALDER & STEVE D'ANTONIO on

July 21st, 2014http://www.passagemaker.com/articles/technical/power/the-science-of-hybrid-propulsion-the-great-debate/
Annoyingly, Pro BB back issues are no longer free online.

Conclusions of the project can be found here: http://cordis.europa.eu/docs/publications/1426/142630451-8_en.zip

 

Dave Cooper

Member
398
27
Edmonds, WA
I have more pictures [renderings] if anyone is interested.
You have to ask?!

Awesome website, very informative about all aspects of the process. Thanks especially for the part about costs - In a million years I wouldn't have thought it could be so reasonable. Really in spitting range for anyone who would consider a new boat in this size range.
I am going to post all the costs except Bob's total design fee, since that goes back almost 30 years and we have both lost track.

I am waiting for Jim to give me a price on the boat less propulsion. I offered to pay time and materials for that part of the boat.

 

us7070

Super Anarchist
10,229
243
also - on the US configuration utility "Enable DSC Relay" is turned on by default

I don't really understand what that is...

i guess i should leave it on?

i will not be entering a group MMSI

 

Ishmael

Yes, we have no bananas
50,946
11,248
Fuctifino
also - on the US configuration utility "Enable DSC Relay" is turned on by default

I don't really understand what that is...

i guess i should leave it on?

i will not be entering a group MMSI
Sorry, but I did not understand any of this. I am not a tech guy at all.
I think it's a wayward message meant for another topic. I think it refers to the ability of a modern VHF to pass through DSC messages without being otherwise involved in a "conversation".

 

Jose Carumba

Super Anarchist
3,066
0
Pugetopolis
I'm a bit behind in reading my Pro Boats. Which issue?
In the Buffer Zone by Nigel Calder, June/July 2014, p. 34

Lithium-ion batteries offer the promise of more efficient and ultimately cheaper onboard energy and electric-propulsion systems, but with risks.

Marine Hybrids Come of Age by Nigel Calder, OCTOBER/NOVEMBER 2010

http://www.marina42.net/uploads/27/Beneteau_ZF_Hybrid_Engine.pdf

And these:

Nigel Calder peeks into the future of your boat’s engine – and you may be surprised what he sees by Deborah Bach on February 15, 2012, Three Sheets Northwest

http://threesheetsnw.com/blog/2012/02/nigel-calder-peeks-into-the-future-of-your-boats-engine-and-you-may-be-surprised-what-he-sees/

The Science of Hybrid Propulsion: The Great Debate by NIGEL CALDER & STEVE D'ANTONIO on

July 21st, 2014http://www.passagemaker.com/articles/technical/power/the-science-of-hybrid-propulsion-the-great-debate/
Annoyingly, Pro BB back issues are no longer free online.

Conclusions of the project can be found here: http://cordis.europa.eu/docs/publications/1426/142630451-8_en.zip
Ok, those are the older ones. I have almost all of the back issues (subscriber from the beginning). Those are good articles. Don't have the Passagemaker article though.

 
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MauiPunter

Will sail for food
A friend of mine's boat torched down to the water line after he converted his batteries over to lithium. It was a professional install and done by the book. Boat was a total loss. Really sad.

 

kdh

Super Anarchist
3,748
101
I glanced thru the file. I really don't care how green it is. All I care about is reducing noise, smell, and vibration.
Dave, noise, smell, and vibration are all bad, but a good diesel installation might be the best way to reduce them. Propulsion takes a lot of power and diesels do it well.

These days, without air conditioning because of LED lighting and other efficiencies practically the only significant load is refrigeration. I've found that for coastal sailing in 11 years I've never run my engine to charge the batteries, and I don't plug in at my slip. Running the motor just for propulsion with a decent alternator setup provides enough charging time for AGM batteries.

The problem with electrical propulsion, as Elon Musk puts it, is "current batteries kind of suck." It's expensive bleeding edge.

 

kimbottles

Super Anarchist
8,055
783
PNW
I glanced thru the file. I really don't care how green it is. All I care about is reducing noise, smell, and vibration.
Dave, noise, smell, and vibration are all bad, but a good diesel installation might be the best way to reduce them. Propulsion takes a lot of power and diesels do it well.

These days, without air conditioning because of LED lighting and other efficiencies practically the only significant load is refrigeration. I've found that for coastal sailing in 11 years I've never run my engine to charge the batteries, and I don't plug in at my slip. Running the motor just for propulsion with a decent alternator setup provides enough charging time for AGM batteries.

The problem with electrical propulsion, as Elon Musk puts it, is "current batteries kind of suck." It's expensive bleeding edge.
Yes, all of what he said.

 

valis

Super Anarchist
3,782
608
Friday Harbor, WA
About VALIS, my Pacific Seacraft 44 (http://www.sailvalis.com/)

On the Origami thread I posted a video showing VALIS assisting the cold-molded Sweet Okole on the way to Hawaii (we were discussing cold-molded boats, among other things). Link: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=172650&page=30#entry5344729 Dave asked about my boat, so to reduce thread-drift in the Origami thread I'm answering here.

Dave, VALIS is a heavily-built cutter, designed by Bill Crealock. It's "cruising weight" is probably a bit over 27,000 lbs. It's got a relatively short LWL, and a canoe stern, so the interior is small compared to many similar LOA boats. It has somewhat slack bilges so we heel easily. It's got reasonable, but not huge tankage and good storage. Our favorite point of sail is reaching and we like medium to strong wind. VALIS is pretty sticky in very light air. We generally sail half the windspeed until we hit eight kts, although with the spinnaker and the right angle we can do much better than that, Our top speed has been 12 kts, with big swells and big wind giving us a push. On rare occasions we have made 200 (nautical) mile days, but 180 miles is not uncommon. VALIS is has a comfortable ride, but with the short LWL may hobby-horse at times. Construction is fiberglass / vinylester, with end-grain balsa coring above the waterline. The deck is plywood-cored.

I have furling genoa and staysail (Harken furlers), and a Leisurefurl boom, which I like well enough -- for me the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

VALIS takes care of us very nicely. Probably the toughest conditions we've encountered was during our Friday Harbor to San Francisco trip in 2014, just before the Pacific Cup race. We hit 50-kt winds (60-kt gusts) and 15-20 ft seas off the southern coast of Oregon (link to blog: http://sailvalis.com/wordpress_1/?p=597). We've done OK in our five Pacific Cup races, finishing mid-fleet most of the time, but getting first in division in 2012. This is more about navigating the weather, having conditions that favor our strengths, and not breaking stuff, rather than pure boat performance.

I'd be happy to discuss more tech stuff, or anything. There's nothing ground-breaking about the PSC44 design, but I like it a lot.

 

SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
67,248
11,604
Great Wet North
I glanced thru the file. I really don't care how green it is. All I care about is reducing noise, smell, and vibration.
Dave, noise, smell, and vibration are all bad, but a good diesel installation might be the best way to reduce them. Propulsion takes a lot of power and diesels do it well.

These days, without air conditioning because of LED lighting and other efficiencies practically the only significant load is refrigeration. I've found that for coastal sailing in 11 years I've never run my engine to charge the batteries, and I don't plug in at my slip. Running the motor just for propulsion with a decent alternator setup provides enough charging time for AGM batteries.

The problem with electrical propulsion, as Elon Musk puts it, is "current batteries kind of suck." It's expensive bleeding edge.
I noticed an Ericson 34X just came on the market here - it was converted to electric power a few years ago.

I see it has a 9.9 on the transom now and no mention of electricity in the ad.

http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/boa/5617041151.html

 
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Panoramix

Super Anarchist
I glanced thru the file. I really don't care how green it is. All I care about is reducing noise, smell, and vibration.
Dave, noise, smell, and vibration are all bad, but a good diesel installation might be the best way to reduce them. Propulsion takes a lot of power and diesels do it well.

These days, without air conditioning because of LED lighting and other efficiencies practically the only significant load is refrigeration. I've found that for coastal sailing in 11 years I've never run my engine to charge the batteries, and I don't plug in at my slip. Running the motor just for propulsion with a decent alternator setup provides enough charging time for AGM batteries.

The problem with electrical propulsion, as Elon Musk puts it, is "current batteries kind of suck." It's expensive bleeding edge.
I noticed an Ericson 34X just came on the market here - it was converted to electric power a few years ago.

I see it has a 9.9 on the transom now and no mention of electricity in the ad.

http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/boa/5617041151.html
One person getting it wrong doesn't imply that it is impossible, jhust that his way didn't work!

 
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