DC Designs

stinky

Anarchist
938
141
As people trickle back to their lives: what worked, what didn't and whose boat should I start ripping off? I have space, time, and $ and I want to canoe.

 
It's being talked about in the other International Cano post (after all the goal is to have these new rules for all IC's - Classics and skinnies), but the choice of design is pretty open. No boat designs appeared slow, all felt fast.

My 2 cents for all converts to this awesome evolution in one of the oldest dinghy classes in the world is to buy a Nethercott (Classic) boat first and learn it for season, then sell it on, before committing to a new lighter boat. This will keep IC's circulating on the water, and ease the wear and tear on new light boats by having canoe skills banked early. Heck you might like the classic so much that you stick with it :D

 
But if you want to build a boat by all mens go for it!

One of the big lessons I think everyone has learned and most people seem to agree with is to do what ever you can to keep everything low. Keeping the center of gravity down makes a huge difference in how easy th boat is to sail. The Chris Maas package was definitely very fast. Fast boat, fast rig, and a talented jockey. His hull has a very fine entry and feels very much like a catamaran, very low resistance and just kept accelerating and got up to speed quickly.

I've got to go board a plane but I'll get back with more when I get a chance.

Oliver

 

ICU2

Member
324
18
Australia
DC Test Rides,

After a personally (I’m sure for all others also) successful 2008 IC Worlds I had the pleasure to take out three of the DC’s for a sail. The wind was up and not getting any lighter also a bit gusty so not the best conditions to get a truly valuable opinion of all three as the conditions varied so much during each test sail.

First boat to sail was Josie my first reaction was bloody hell how fast is this, unreal I want one. Then I started to get used to the systems Steve has for his seat and hiking straps and was able to hike better like our much loved Nethercott hulls Josie went faster hiking hard not just a bit fast but much faster. Steve, Oliver and Willy had commented earlier before the regatta how noisy the Josie hulls are they were not kidding having sailed near them a week or two earlier you could hear they made some noise, its not until you are on them you really hear the “touch down” slamming of the bow on waves to windward in particular. Even with the noise the boat was an extremely nice ride much better then I thought, if the plank and hiking system was more like what I have become used to over the last couple of decades and I didn’t have other DC’s to test I may still be out on the water days later. When I turned around and went down hill on a very hot broad reach with wind gusting around 18knots + I was really impressed on how hard I was able to push the boat at an angle were I though I would have pitch pole for sure (believe me I tried) she just kept getting faster with the bow not even thinking about hooking up. Any large wave the bow met up with was just cut through with little noticeable resistance. The planning sensation was well and truly present up and down wind.

Boat two was John Kells DC “Pterodactyl” again the system of the plank and sheet was odd for me the boat felt nice the noise from the hull was gone from Josie she was a really nice boat very much a really fast smooth Nethercott to sail went through the water easily a little more stable aft during turns than Josie but only a little. Off the wind the bow was a little more likely to hook up due to some rather strange noises around the mast gate I was hesitant to push hard like I did with Josie I felt I could push Josie much harder than Pterodactyl with the later being a smoother ride without the noise. I would have to say that’s just my gut feeling I would really like to have had the chance to push as hard as I did on Josie to prove my feeling right or wrong. I also has an issue with the rudder lock down which caused the rudder to lift out of the slot limiting steering which due to the narrower tipy hull compared to the Nethercott was a little tricky in the conditions to sort out especially when I wasn’t quite sure how it worked, which was really simple and easy once I got back to sure and could look at the system while standing still (pity I didn’t look at it before I went out). John has a really nice boat some time tuning and getting all the little things spot on as with Josie will produce a really fast competitive package.

Last but not least was the DC I had been drooling over ever since I saw the first picture on the www.intcanoe.org was “String Theory” the most beautifully built and presented boat I can remember seeing for a long time (the bar has been lifted once again, I need to go away to learn how to try and match Chris’s efforts). First impression was who stole the other hull is this a monohull or a big Catamaran the bow just cut through the water so smoothly and went so dam fast yet felt like she was hardly moving she was so smooth, until a bigger wave cam through and hooked the hull back at the shrouds then you could really get an idea of just how fast the boat was going as the boat slowed down and then accelerated of after clearing the water with more than ample amount of travel on the carriage this was easily fixed by moving the carriage to raise the bow just a little which was enough to just clear the shrouds for 95% of the waves around that day. Down hill the bow was well and truly in the water while pushing hard where Josie’s was clear, it didn’t seam to make that much difference other than the heart rate going a little harder while waiting for the bow to really hook up and send me flying yet it didn’t happen. Like any other higher performance boat keeping the eye out for a gust and adjusting for it as it hit would allow the hull to sail through the gust with ease, pushing hard on String Theory was far more doable than I thought. Chris’s plank and sheeting system was more like what I’m used to the only thing I didn’t really get to like was the self taking jib maybe with some more time in easier conditions to get used to the self taker I might get to like it.

In summary this is for me the way forward for the IC they have the qualities which define for me an IC, pointy ends, hiking plank, main sail and jib the hull is extremely easily pushed through the water without having to over complicate it. Comparing the Nethercott to the DC is like comparing a Hobie 14 to an “A Cat” the ride is so much smoother and faster. Josie is the hull you can push beyond belief without fear, but bloody noisy. Pterodactyl is a really smooth, really fast Nethercott (by no means at all slow compared to Josie and String Theory), String Theory was the smoothest ride, like sailing a big cat at high speed with less of the planning sensation that monohull sailors enjoy so much. In the end I have come off the water with my head spinning any ideas I had before are so confused I need to really have a good think about what I will do when I build my new breed of International Canoe. Defending my IC World Championship in Germany will be an extremely tough challenge.

ICU2

 
Excellent Review ICU2, seems everyone has sailed my new boat but me - roll on tomorrow! We'll have to make sure we copy these reviews over to the IC Forum aswell (www.intcanoe.org/forum2)

 

Steve Clark

Super Anarchist
I think I over cooked the flat in the bow, so I intend to increase the radius of the turn of the bilge in the first meter of the canoe. This will make the underwater sections quite round for the first foot or so and will quiet things down. I liked the pitch damping of the big waterplane, and while it isn't necesarily bad to "slam" it did seem a bit stickier than it might be at times. New A cats slap and slam a whole lot more than the Mk 4 variety.

All these boats felt different, but all seemed to race pretty evenly, so perhaps the rule works!

Stinky, where art thou? how can we help you?

SHC

 
Here are my observations and thoughts following the IC worlds re the different designs. I was sailing one of the three Josie hulls that were there. Steve Clark finished second on his and Steve’s son Willy also had one. Steve and I had identical rigs but I was using a different foil package. Steve’s were his standard issue which he’s been using on nethercots for a while, pretty big board and the rudder is the same as the tip of the board. I used a set of 505 molds built for the Pegasus guys, and I was gibing the board. After the event I’m pretty sold that it is worth it. I was able to climb on everyone and had speed, definitely a winner.

Hull shapes:

The Josie hulls have a rectangular section forward, very full and flat. It’s very loud in the waves but you can push them harder and harder and she just skips right along. Steve is talking about rounding out the section a bit to try and quite them down a bit. We had one day with good 6-8 foot swells and when you fell off one of them the landing was definitely jarring, but I’m not sure how bad of a thing it is. Compared to the other hulls it seems to me that we operate in a much more of a planning mode. If you had the knuckle in the water she would sort of get stuck on it but you could easily pop it out and once you did she would skip along with the front six inches clear of the water. Definitely much more of a planning dinghy type of feel to it than the others.

Chris Maas’s boat, String Theory, has a very different feel to it. It felt much more like a catamaran. String theory has a very very fine entry with a more rounded section. She feels very low drag, I never felt her get stuck and she got up to speed very quickly. The boat moving through the water looks smooth and effortless. In the video it looks like we were flogging the Josies much harder. I’m not really sure how much of a penalty Chris is paying having the winglets for the shrouds. At times he looked like he was shedding quite a bit of water off them, but we never had really choppy conditions. In talking with Chris he is thinking about adding some more volume down low forward to give him a little confidence in the bow not going down. The other thing he told me he was planning on doing was lowering everything as much as possible. Keeping the center of gravity as low as possible seems to make a huge difference in how stable they are.

We spent a day trading boats after the event and it was shocking how different each of the different hulls were, and yet the racing was incredibly close. Allistar Warren’s Monkey had a completely different feel to it. She was wider than the others but she was always right there in the racing. Only sailed her for a little while so I can’t really say too much about her.

Del Olsen’s Donkey was very interesting. Del took the bottom of a NOGO 55 hull, which is Bill Beaver’s design to the old one design rule, then cut it down and stuck vertical topsides on it. He made the bow as fine as he could, which ended up around the same as the Josies. I was most struck by how docile she was. In my short sail on here she seemed to me to be the best behaved of all the DC hulls. Del was working through some issues (he started building in August or something crazy like that) but had some definite moments of speed.

John Kells’s Mayhem proved to be a very nice little boat. She is somewhat more along the Josie lines but a little less aggressive. John also had some breakages but definitely showed speed. He was right in the game upwind and I couldn’t hold on to him on the reaches. My biggest concern with the Josie hulls is that I was definitely slower than most on the reaches. Not sure how much of that is the hull and how much of that was how I was sailing the boat. I’ve never been particularly fast on the reaches but I had a very hard time holding on to people this last week. But when the reach was pretty fine and you could really light it up and get into a full planning mode I felt like I was moving on people. But definitely need more time in the boat to get a real sense of it.

Phil Stevenson’s 21st Century Hollow Log is another one that is very different from the others. I sailed her in the Aussie nationals over last Easter so have a pretty good sense of what she can do. Down wind and on the reaches she is absolutely blazingly fast. The hull is very slippery and with the big mainsail Phil was able to do quite a bit of damage off the wind. Upwind he struggled a little, but he wasn’t falling out the back. But I am extremely impressed by how successful Phil was in keeping her upright. It was all I could do to gybe her in breeze, but I’m sure Phil’s moth experience helped. Its hard to say what is doing what because she is so different than the others in so many ways. It would be interesting to see her with a standard rig on her, because I have a feeling that the hull could be very fast. But then again it could be all in the rig. Part of me thinks that it is the way of the future, every other class that has the option to put all the area in the main has done so. Yet a 10 square meter sail is a mighty big sail and my biggest struggle on her was catching the boom in the water. So I’m not sure.

I didn’t actually get a chance to sail Phil Robin’s Scarlet O’hara. She was designed by Phil Morrison and built by Andy Paterson, so she’s got a pretty damn good pedigree. Phil like many of us struggle from having too few hours in the boat and as a result had some kinks to work out. But the boat showed some jets. He was the only one to beat Chris (Steve won one when Chris broke his tiller extension), and that was on the day with the big swells. I was first to the weather mark and he just blew by me on the reaches and he was gone after that. It’s a pity that we didn’t see more of her because I think she could be a real winner. Steve did sail her and he seemed impressed.

Rob Patterson from Toronto sailed Wonk, she was Steve’ first attempt at the new rules and very much the predecessor to Josie. Rob struggled quite a bit as it was his first real IC event and he definitely didn’t do Wonk justice. Wonk provided many lessons that went into the changes in Josie but there is definitely some potential there. The most striking thing about Wonk is her reversed wave-piercing bow. She does pitch pole fairly easily if you aren’t careful and far enough back, there is great video of Rob going over that will hopefully be a hit on youtube, but I’m not convinced that it is wrong. There are some other issues with her that make her a little tough to handle but I think there is a lot of potential there.

The last one is Geoff Harman’s, she didn’t show particularly well, but we’re not sure that it’s an issue with the hull. The rig was definitely sub par and I think Geoff was struggling a bit, so really hard to make any sort of assessment on the boat.

The other DC was Dave Clark in Alice, who is anything but a new boat. She’s USA 92, and Steve’s first IC back in the 70s and she wasn’t new then. When Steve was rebuilding her he pinched the bows a little too much so she no longer measured in a nethercot, but she does under the new rule. So Steve and Dave did a beautiful job putting her back together and got her down to 70 kg. She’s got the same rig and foils as the rest of the Clark boats and was actually pretty quick in the light stuff.

A couple things about the event itself: The Aussies did a fantastic job putting it on, and the McCrae YC team are probably the best RC I’ve ever dealt with. We had a full mixture of conditions, everything from 18 kts to very light stuff. All good racing though. The racing was exceptionally competitive often with only a couple of boat lengths separating us at the finish. As far as the comparison between the new boats and the nethercots: we were definitely faster but were certainly just walking around them. In the pre-worlds we all started together and most of the time it was all new rules at the front but in a couple of the really light stuff Hayden, who ended up world champ, was right there at the front. During the worlds it was often a strug gle to make up the 5 minute lead we spotted them. Chris and Steve caught the leaders a couple of times but usually the by the end the leaders on the DCs were in the midst of the IC leaders. But great racing and I’m looking forward to the next one in Germany.

On politics: the plan for the new rules is that we vote on them becoming the International Canoe rule in April or so. That would mean that there would be no distinction between ICs and DCs they would all be ICs. The sense I got from the worlds was that there is generally strong support for this. The Australians are certainly excited. The Germans seem intrigued and it I think the Brits are on board. Kind of hard to tell. The Swedes however are the only ones who are openly against it. The class there is struggling as it is and there is no interest in building new boats, which is too bad. We had our usual class meeting at the worlds and when a straw pole was taken for the change the response was pretty much unanimous support, which is good. So I think it will all go through, but we should know soon. By enlarge the overwhelming sentiment I got from the other competitors was excitement about where the class was heading and a feeling that we are embarking on the next chapter of the story of the International Canoe.

One final note, its great news that there were 10 sailors in the fleet in their 20s or younger, and only half were related to each other! The youth movement is growing!

So all and all a great event and there is promise for a bright future for the class.

Oliver Moore

USA 240

 
cant seem to log on to the class site at the moment. Someone mind pasting that over there
Thanks
Great Report, and I've put it on the IC Forum. The Josie hull comments echo what I found racing today - in the flat water they pretty much plane everywhere and are very quick. Nethercotts are awesome, these just take it to a whole new level!

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,595
224
Sydney
What a great regatta. It was really good meeting so many Internet friends, and racing agains all the other DCs.

From design perspective it was clear that Chis Maas' boat was just faster than everthing else there. He won more races than the results show as in the pre WC series he forgot to sign on a couple of days. I had a sail of his boat on the NYC day and agree it goes through the water like a cat. Compared to Steve's Josie, Del's, and John's boats, it just felt slipperier. But it was not unstable. By comparison my Log was more like Chis' boat than the others. It cuts the water like an cat too, but being higher wooded it a bit wobbly at times. The high bow also means it continues to cut waves downwind when the other boats are backing off.

I am happy with my hull shape. In light and heavy I passed boats reaching and downwind, incuding Chris at least a couple of times. My upwind was poor compared to the DCs but on a par with the best ICs, which I knew from racing Seth late last year, but it was not good enough at the regatta.

I think the downwind speed proves that the hull is good, but the upwind speed shows the rig is below par. I will experiment more with the una rig before deciding on switching to sloop.

Some of the preworld races were shortened at downwind marks so my places were better than in the WC where all races were finished upwind as required by Canoe Racing rules. If we were counted at the last downwind mark I would maybe have placed about 4 or 5 boats better. I also lost two races when the seat split, and then the carriage consequently let me down the next day. But at least now I have a better idea on how to build good light seats and carriages after see how the rest of the world do it.

Congratulations to Hayden and Chris. Compliments to Steve for creating the DC concept, building what seemed like half the fleet, and bring his whole family to sail them. Well done to Chris, Del, John, Alister, and Phil in creating some great boats and tough competition. Thanks for all the positive comments about my boat. Also excited about the skippers meeting endorsing the proposed change to DC rules for future IC WC events. (It still needs a formal international vote.)

So all the fence sitters go and build one.

 

TimClark

Super Anarchist
1,441
0
NYC
cant seem to log on to the class site at the moment. Someone mind pasting that over there
Thanks
Great review! Now I might have to get a job instructing this summer to pay for building one of these things!

P.S- Where are these videos?

TC

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Great review! Now I might have to get a job instructing this summer to pay for building one of these things!
P.S- Where are these videos?

TC
Videos should be finished editing soon and be getting posted out by the end of the month (thats the Worlds one), a month or so later for the Class promotional DVD (from which we hope to have some good footage on you tube).

 

TimClark

Super Anarchist
1,441
0
NYC
Videos should be finished editing soon and be getting posted out by the end of the month (thats the Worlds one), a month or so later for the Class promotional DVD (from which we hope to have some good footage on you tube).
oooo a promo DVD? I like what I'm reading...

TC

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,595
224
Sydney
I covered all the visiting boats but missed the other Aussie one. Geoff's boat was as good as anyone but his sails were too flat and undersize. He did well for the oldest guy in our fleet, and ashore he and Marilyn were great company.

Of course we all owe heaps to the Knotts who organised the thing and to McCrae YC who did very well despite un co-operative winds.

 

k76

Member
Hi all,

Sorry I couldn't make it to the worlds, but congrats to you all.

Thanks for everyone's writeups on the DC designs.

Was there any great differences in the relative performance of the boats in different conditions? I always expected Chris' machine to be a killer in a blow, but that maybe the narrower stern designs would have their day in lighter conditions? Or is the crossover windspeed so low as to be irrelevant?

Same thing with the UNA rig, did it show promise in the lighter conditions?

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,595
224
Sydney
Chris' boat was fast in all weather. He was beaten once by Steve in a drift by the luck of the wind, and on once by Phil Robin in moderate winds and rough water, when his low freeboard migt have been an issue. Some of us got close at times but he always had speed to get away again. His hull did not suffer from the wide stern. Is 750mm wide anyway?

The una sail Hollow Log was fast reaching and running. Its not clear if the sail was fast or the hull. Thinks were not so good upwind compared to the other DCs. Results reflect fact that most races finishe dupwind not downwind.

Problem might be a combination of una rig, unstayed mast, or even carriage position too far aft. I will work on it next winter.

 

Steve Clark

Super Anarchist
What I thought after the boat swap was that the boats all felt like very different animals, but seemed to be similarly quick.

I recall a boat swap with Erich Chase sometime around 2001. We both felt the other's boat felt much better ( and faster) than our own and we split races throughout the series. I like the way Phil and Chris's boat slide along, but Chris will be the first to tell you that you have to be pretty careful down wind in big waves or wind with his boat. I think he wants to add some freeboard and volume forward on the next edition, but as always, does this slow him down?

It should be pointed out that Chris had done a superb job of sorting this project. Since I first raced against him in Marion, he made all the crunchy bits tough enough, built a second dagger board, bought a jib cut to the same pattern as we had, and found Anders Peterson and convinced him to make a mainsail. When I learned that last bit, I was pretty dispirited. Anders' mains are really special and I hadn't managed to make the connection, so I felt out gunned.

The more pointy sterned boats don't seem to give up much ever. Phil's boat will be miles easier to sail if he cuts the freeboard down and thus lowers the crew's CG. This will make sailing the hollow log much less like balancing on one. I have spent more than a few minutes during the last week thinking of how to cross Phil's construction with Chris's general concept, as it seems that it would be easy to fold up a canoe that was "about like that."

Of course I'm not sure how many people want to take the cheap and easy way to building a boat like this. There is something to be said for the drool factor.

The Morisson and the Kells are very very nice canoes, both of which had less than 3 hours of sailing before hitting the water in McCrae, so it would be impossible to say anything about them except that they have shown great potential and cannot be dismissed. I liked the way they moved when I sailed them.

My own effort is certainly in tho mix. Oliver probably shot himself in the foot by getting wrapped up in he I-14 last summer and not getting Uncle Walter done anywhere near in time to get sorted out, so he too was doing the sort dance instead of really racing for much of the regatta. Josie is fast, I am going to narrow the waterlines forward just a tad and increase the radius at the turn of the bilge.

As Hayden says, she is really fun to drive on reaches because she seems to flirt with disaster but mostly avoid it. You CAN drive her under, as Willy will attest, But you have to work pretty hard to do it. So, just as Chris thinks String Theory is just on the too dangerous side of OK, I think Josie might be just on the too safe side of OK.

Anyway exciting times ahead, I hope many new people want to come and play with whet I think are extraordinary boats.

SHC

 
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