Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[WGWarburton]

Yes, it doesn't have full set of IOR vices.  The lack of massive genoa is very welcome.

But that forefoot isn't just an aesthetic problem; it does horrible hings to the waterflow.  The stern is quite narrow on the waterline, and lacks immersed volume from the rudder aft, so it in practice it isn't all that much better than a pintail.  

The underwater shapes make a lot more sense when the boat has a few degrees of heel on: which is pretty much all the time under sail. Did the owners of the one you saw report any issues? In practice, I haven't come across any actual difficulties.

 Anyway, we are getting into specifics that are a long way off topic: I don't plan on being any significant distance offshore on a tired, forty-year old racer... though I think the guy that bought Qantro (the orange trimmed, ex-Whitby E-32) was planning on sailing her to Portugal, which would presumably involve a Biscay crossing.

 Maybe some day I will be able to afford a proper boat.

Cheers,

              W.

 

[Israel Hands]

View attachment 438817 For starters, this forefoot.  Then the stern set up so it can't actually do any work.

I am glad that you are happy with your boat, but it's well loaded with IOR bad attributes.

Pointing out the flaws of a man's boat is almost like commenting on his woman's looks. 

 

[Blue Crab]

Pointing out the flaws of a man's boat is almost like commenting on his woman's looks. 

Take it to PA!

 

[TwoLegged]

The underwater shapes make a lot more sense when the boat has a few degrees of heel on: which is pretty much all the time under sail. Did the owners of the one you saw report any issues? In practice, I haven't come across any actual difficulties.

Sorry, but that stern doesn't make sense at any angle of heel.  Like the flat forefoot, it's all a ratings dodge whose purpose is to slow the boat a bit less than the rule thinks it has been slowed.  

Pointing out the flaws of a man's boat is almost like commenting on his woman's looks. 

In this, the owner basically invited the critique.

 

[WGWarburton]

Sorry, but that stern doesn't make sense at any angle of heel.  Like the flat forefoot, it's all a ratings dodge whose purpose is to slow the boat a bit less than the rule thinks it has been slowed.  

   I'm still not following your objection to the actual sailing characteristics that result. I understand that the waterline is artificially shortened when the boat is upright, which wouldn't be necessary without the rule... it might lead to wave-slap under the stern at anchor but that doesn't actually seem to be a problem in practice. The flat stern sections were intended to allow the boat to plane when pushed hard enough (which is hardly an IOR characteristic, nor one I'm tempted to indulge now the boat is old, overweight and I (arguably, also old & overweight?) am not racing it). The stern seems relatively wide to me, unless compared to pretty extreme modern designs (which seem to have their own compromises, though I can't speak from experience, hence my questions...).

In this, the owner basically invited the critique.

Indeed, seeking to broaden my understanding... but your aversion seems largely aesthetic, unless I'm missing something? You said earlier that the stern doesn't work... what should it be doing that it isn't, apart from looking pretty? 

Cheers,

              W.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

"IOR Boats are awful" yet somehow they got more boats out there than we can ever dream of today.

 

[TwoLegged]

 I'm still not following your objection to the actual sailing characteristics that result. I understand that the waterline is artificially shortened when the boat is upright, which wouldn't be necessary without the rule... it might lead to wave-slap under the stern at anchor but that doesn't actually seem to be a problem in practice. The flat stern sections were intended to allow the boat to plane when pushed hard enough (which is hardly an IOR characteristic, nor one I'm tempted to indulge now the boat is old, overweight and I (arguably, also old & overweight?) am not racing it). The stern seems relatively wide to me, unless compared to pretty extreme modern designs (which seem to have their own compromises, though I can't speak from experience, hence my questions...).

Basically, to increase effective hull length, the stern has do some work, i.e it has to push the water downwards.  That requires broad flat surface that are actually immersed ... which this hull doesn't have.

The water isn't fooled by a wee sliver kissing the water, and that stern offers the water only a narrow sliver, high up.  Those stern sections are nowhere near powerful enough to allow the boat to plane, and they probably won't ever allow it to surf.

If you aren't pushing the boat at all, this may be irrelevant.  

 

[TwoLegged]

"IOR Boats are awful" yet somehow they got more boats out there than we can ever dream of today.

The number of boats out racing was a function of the socio-economic conditions of the time.

The IOR just ensured that the armada of new boats being built were warped and deformed.

 

[IStream]

We lost the last one of our parents last night, we also made the decision to stay around while we could enjoy them or at least support them. No regrets.

Condolences, Ish.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Fundamentals rarely change - the sea is the same.

But the tools and techniques and our knowledge do develop.

Just for 3 quite random instances . . . Drag devices and offshore weather routing and sleep management are 'fundamental's' been around in one form or another since the Greeks . . but the balance of knowledge around each has continually developed and is no longer well/totally captured in that prior generation of books.

Slightly on a tangent from that thought - I really wish someone would take the effort to capture Webb C's seamanship wisdom.  He is 'my generation' - but personally has always been more interested in poetry than how-to - he has developed a really extraordinary knowledge/experience base - it is a bit niche - but still super special and valuable - be a bit sad to just let it disappear. 

Agree.  What I loved reading in Webb’s early books on his voyages were his meticulous and frank observations/log notes.  (His book “Storm Passage” comes to mind right now.) This is someone with a very keen eye and mind recording lots of weather, course and other relevant details, as well as impressions and related observations - tons to be learned from them by a patient reader.  They’re gripping, almost chilling at times, in their matter-of-fact detail.

But as you say he prefers to write poetry than wax analytically about desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore yachts.   Or prefers to simply prepare and go sailing!  It appears he’s leaving today for Bermuda (nonstop and back), as planned (link).  His  Yellow Brick has recorded his first leg

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

With heavy cruisers following seas always travel faster than the boat. As he hull on these boats gets sucked downwards at speed the boat tends to wallow at the mercy of the speeding lumps. Often with dramatic pitching. With a light plane-able cruiser the waves usually travel faster than the boat but pass underneath much slower, with much less drama. If the boat travels faster than the waves, as happens with the very fastest crewed boats, punching into the back of waves becomes a concern. At best it rinses the decks. At worst the bow stops while the stern continues onwards causing an abrupt change in scenery.

You seem to have a good understanding of the issues. Books say the typical trade wind wave conditions are 6 feet every 9 seconds. I've spent days in those conditions under autopilot, sleeping even, without issues. (SC50) Boat speed varying from 10 to 15 knots. Perhaps 20 on the odd wave or in a squall. The waves usually pass slowly and are sometimes slowly overtaken. Most remarkable: no pitching. I never sail DDW but 30° or more up where some constant wind pressure prevents the roll as waves pass. It is fun. 

The older and slower boats I have cruised behaved comparatively badly as each passing wave toys with the stern. Exhausting indeed as the rudder movements are large and frequent. The apparent wind is high, sometimes wet. The stern rises, the boat turns, then heels, then repeats on the other side, the crew barfs.

The older authors were likely ignorant of the possibilities. Then stubborness set in as their chunderbeast world crumbled. That was way back in the 70's and 80's. One would think the sailing world was past all the discussion by now.

Great, detailed description of fast boat sailing, how wind and wave interact with hull.  Shows why trying to get out sailing in a variety of different boat types is valuable.

And thanks for the introduction to “chunderbeast”.  Chunder has an interesting origin, which I never knew.

 

[Bryanjb]

Although I've owned and raced these, I don't want a bigger version for cruising.

 

[WGWarburton]

Basically, to increase effective hull length, the stern has do some work, i.e it has to push the water downwards.  That requires broad flat surface that are actually immersed ... which this hull doesn't have.

 I think I get your point and I would simply accept it at face value but for:

The water isn't fooled by a wee sliver kissing the water, and that stern offers the water only a narrow sliver, high up.  Those stern sections are nowhere near powerful enough to allow the boat to plane, and they probably won't ever allow it to surf.

If you aren't pushing the boat at all, this may be irrelevant.  

 ...this, which is simply incorrect. I've personally had the boat moving at well over hull speed going down biggish waves in a southerly in the Clyde channel, despite a conservative sailplan;  and cms, of this parish who was involved at the time, can attest to the design (if not my boat  sustaining planing speeds of 14kt+ BITD. Not, the 20kt+ of a modern lightweight hull, of course, but consistently above hull speed for prolonged periods, not digging a hole in the water, "IOR style".

Cheers,

              W.

 

[Ishmael]

Sorry to hear that Ish. It was a few years ago for us.

One of the things we noticed is that there is no longer anyone to ask "family" questions.

Thanks, Jon. We still have one aunt and one uncle between us, so family history is not lost yet.

Condolences, Ish.

Thank you. It wasn't a surprise, but it's still not fun.

 

[SloopJonB]

"IOR Boats are awful" yet somehow they got more boats out there than we can ever dream of today.

I liken the IOR period to the Muscle car wars - the designs left something to be desired in many areas but they had style and participation that just doesn't exist anymore.

A Peterson One Tonner compared to a '66 Shelby Mustang - think about it.

 

[SloopJonB]

The number of boats out racing was a function of the socio-economic conditions of the time.

The IOR just ensured that the armada of new boats being built were warped and deformed.

It also ensured rich guys building new boats every year or two.

It also started the careers of numberless designers to feed that demand.

It was a true golden age of sailboat racing. IOR boats were much better performing than their predecessors. The fact that boats are better now is hardly relevant, it's just normal progress.

 

[Cruisin Loser]

We lost the last one of our parents last night, we also made the decision to stay around while we could enjoy them or at least support them. No regrets.

Sincerest condolences. 

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

We lost the last one of our parents last night, we also made the decision to stay around while we could enjoy them or at least support them. No regrets.

Very sorry to hear that, Ish.  Can’t be easy, no matter that it wasn’t a total surprise (as you noted elsewhere).

With that in mind, and this thread, too, I’m going to call my 80-something year old dad right now - he got me started on this whole sailing thing decades ago - on a MacGregor 2-24 (back when they were decent boats), and also gave me a copy of Rousmaniere’s classic “The Annapolis Book”, which I still have.

 

[Zonker]

We lost the last one of our parents last night, we also made the decision to stay around while we could enjoy them or at least support them. No regrets.

I'm very sorry. That's so sad but I'm glad you were around. My wife lost her step-mom while we were cruising Mexico and there was no easy way to get home in a reasonable time.

We were at my parents last night and he gave me his old hand bearing compass saying he didn't think he'd need it any more and maybe somebody in our sailing co-op could use it. It's going to be very hard when he dies; he taught me so much about working on boats and cars and houses. Lots of it I picked up by osmosis.

When I'm doing a job on the plumbing or on the car I get my daughter and say "come here and learn something" and she does. Glad to be passing on some knowledge that he instilled in me.

 

[accnick]

I'm very sorry. That's so sad but I'm glad you were around. My wife lost her step-mom while we were cruising Mexico and there was no easy way to get home in a reasonable time.

We were at my parents last night and he gave me his old hand bearing compass saying he didn't think he'd need it any more and maybe somebody in our sailing co-op could use it. It's going to be very hard when he dies; he taught me so much about working on boats and cars and houses. Lots of it I picked up by osmosis.

When I'm doing a job on the plumbing or on the car I get my daughter and say "come here and learn something" and she does. Glad to be passing on some knowledge that he instilled in me.

I didn't always appreciate every skill I learned from my dad just by watching him do it. When he was gone, however, I still had those lessons to fall back on, even if I had forgotten where I learned them.

He would take me into his woodshop to watch from the time I was a small child, including the time he severed parts of three fingers on a table saw. I never reach for the switch on my table saw without remembering that lesson. Take a deep breath, and remember that power tools can bite if you are careless.

He died before I finished building my cruising boat, but was too far gone into dementia to appreciate it even before he died. That boat may have been my magnum opus, but it was really my homage to everything I learned from him, whether I knew it or not.

Ishmael, I am so sorry for your loss.