Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

TwoLegged

Super Anarchist
5,894
2,262
The only Julian Everett boat I ever saw up close was an Eliminator 32.   There's a good page on it at https://julianeveritt.com/2017/02/07/eliminator-32/ ... which confirms my recollection of its warped shape.
This one?

https://www.facebook.com/653448044/posts/10157939898888045/

 That angle brings out your concerns really well,  I think...?

That boat was for sale with an asking price of 8000 Euro or so last year. The ad shows up if googled,  though withdrawn. 
The boat I saw was a yellow or cream colour, and an Irish boat.  But that was in the late 1970s, and the intervening 40+ years is long enough for a switch to UK sail numbers and a radical repaint.

Yes, that angle does show the weird hull shape.   But at that sort of money, the easily-handled rig may make it all a decent package for club use.   Much better than wrestling genoas on a Club Shamrock

 

CapDave

Anarchist
616
710
Bermuda
yes, exact - and also if there is a frontal system coming, with a wind shift, you want to be positioned to accept that shift gracefully.

It was always something we thought about when we had multiple waves trains and/or frontal systems coming.

I remember this being mentioned in some storm book I read way back when, cant remember which one . . .but you are right it is not commonly brought up.
Reminds me of pre-satellite navigation - I once had to make a landfall with 72 hours of dead reckoning after last celestial, and crossing an ocean current too. We had WFAX, so we deliberately aimed to offset to what was predicted to be upwind of our destination, so that when we found land we'd be certain which way to turn and sail downwind to patrol the coast and find the harbor. Nailed it 6 miles upwind of the harbor entrance!

 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
28,578
6,321
Kent Island!
1930 Waco:

image.png

2021 Waco:

image.png

The radio is better in the 2021 version ;)

Where I work we still have Cobol programmers too.

Turbocharging, supercharging, 4 valves per cylinder, and a whole shitload of "the newest thing" in cars is stuff that actually predates WW II. There were even electronic wastegates in WW II. With the notable exception of the now-extinct Concorde, passenger aircraft have not gotten any faster than the old beaters from the 1950s.

I think designing anything not made from microcircuits isn't as divorced from the past as some of you seem to think. Hell, Baltimore Clippers were the "extreme" boats of their day two centuries ago and earned a well deserved reputation as barely seaworthy boats that needed expert handling way way before the VOR.

 
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SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
72,102
14,519
Great Wet North
Sorry, not following. Bolt-ons will get you that out of an LS1. 400 at the wheel with 20mpg is not difficult. 
We (or at least I) were talking about 30 years ago and earlier.

Getting 400 RW HP out of an early small block made it almost unlivable on the street - needed a cam so lumpy it wouldn't produce enough vacuum to run power brakes..

And it would have gotten about 8 MPG and produced huge pollution.

I repeat - everything about cars has been dramatically improved over that span.

Except weight.

 

Elegua

Generalissimo
We (or at least I) were talking about 30 years ago and earlier.

Getting 400 RW HP out of an early small block made it almost unlivable on the street - needed a cam so lumpy it wouldn't produce enough vacuum to run power brakes..

And it would have gotten about 8 MPG and produced huge pollution.

I repeat - everything about cars has been dramatically improved over that span.

Except weight.
True. But as I said, it's not the engine. It's the sensors and the injections. For example, 30 years ago you had to guess your AFR across the RPM range. Today you can calibrate your fueling curve based on real-time data. My point was 30 years ago, everyone had a good idea how to extract power but couldn't implement it.  It took real skill and guesswork. Today, even a moron like myself can read a log and adjust the parameters. 

 

MikeJohns

Member
495
134
Hobart
This is one of the issues in yacht design that is absent (to a large extent) in other engineering efforts. Yacht design is less driven by science and more by fad and racing rules,...................
And other rules like marina charges, regulatory rules. licensing and insurance.

The plumb bow is a good topic for a discussion of fashion and rule driven design.

 

CapDave

Anarchist
616
710
Bermuda
I think designing anything not made from microcircuits isn't as divorced from the past as some of you seem to think. Hell, Baltimore Clippers were the "extreme" boats of their day two centuries ago and earned a well deserved reputation as barely seaworthy boats that needed expert handling way way before the VOR.
Do you remember the Pride sinking in 1986? I knew one of the survivors. Quite the story, sailing with the hatches open, a knockdown, down she went. Four dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_of_Baltimore#Sinking

 

zenmasterfred

Super Anarchist
1,561
565
Lopez Island
It seems like if a boat isn't a racing boat, it is designed for the charter market and mainly needs 4 heads and 4 showers in a 40 foot boat :rolleyes:
My slip neighbors just bought a new Beneteau 38.1, not a piece of wood down below and the owner who has sailed across the Pacific commented that there were no hand rails on the overhead.  Guess it is meant to sail gently from one protected harbor to the next so you don't need anything to hold on to.  Looked kind of like a cheap trailer "downstairs".  The owners were a little sheepish about it.

 

MFH125

Member
165
168
This is one of the issues in yacht design that is absent (to a large extent) in other engineering efforts. Yacht design is less driven by science and more by fad and racing rules, resulting in enormous and decades long excursions into the nearly absurd. You have to be asleep at the wheel not to recognize this even in today's offerings. In some cases the NA knows better, but he/she works for a client that doesn't. The series builder wants to sell boats, for the most part doesn't really care how they sail, as long as they sail out of the showroom. The end user has read too many ads in magazines, and today's end user is probably buying a 45'er as their very first boat. There are only a few niche corners of sailing that are truly driven by science and results. 

The largest changes in yachts by far in the last 100 years have been due to materials science advances developed in other fields, not any epiphanies in the knowledge of sailing. 
To add to this, since sailing is ultimately a leisure activity, the nature of the economy has a lot to do with it too. How much disposable income and leisure time the middle and upper middle class have has a lot to do with what kind of boats and boating are popular.  It's hard to sell someone on the virtues of an offshore cruising boat when they get two weeks of vacation per year.  Interestingly, the wealthy in the US are working longer hours and taking less time off than ever before.  That doesn't mean they're going to give up the sailboat, but it probably changes what is appealing to them in a boat.

 

SemiSalt

Super Anarchist
7,853
330
WLIS
1930 Waco:

View attachment 439033

2021 Waco:

View attachment 439034

The radio is better in the 2021 version ;)

Where I work we still have Cobol programmers too.

Turbocharging, supercharging, 4 valves per cylinder, and a whole shitload of "the newest thing" in cars is stuff that actually predates WW II. There were even electronic wastegates in WW II. With the notable exception of the now-extinct Concorde, passenger aircraft have not gotten any faster than the old beaters from the 1950s.

I think designing anything not made from microcircuits isn't as divorced from the past as some of you seem to think. Hell, Baltimore Clippers were the "extreme" boats of their day two centuries ago and earned a well deserved reputation as barely seaworthy boats that needed expert handling way way before the VOR.
GA aircraft design has been as affected by regulation as sailing as been affected by racing rules. In aviation, the role of rule makers is played by the slow, and very conservative FAA certification process. Your brand new Cessna comes with an engine based on 1930s technology. Things like fuel injection and computer controls are just starting to show up. And a 100hp airplane engine cost 10 times as much as a LA crate engine, and has to be torn down completely for overhaul the equivalent of every 30K-50K miles.

Discussed here: 






 

Jud - s/v Sputnik

Super Anarchist
6,951
2,137
Canada
yea . . . . some years ago, Beth and I had been advising a couple getting ready for Chile, and on our final night with them they asked for any last advise . . . . I told them 'always do the exact right best thing possible to 100% quality immediately right now when you first think it might be useful no matter how tired or sick you are, most especially when you are dog tired and barfing sick'.

The trick is that you need to know what that exactly right thing to do is, and how to do it exactly right.  Some people have an innate skill and feeling for that, and others need to accumulate vast experience to be able to, and then there are some who just will never ever get it.  Even those last can get by on sheer tenacity , if they have it in huge doses, but it will not be pretty.
One of the “classic” books on big-objective alpine rock/ice climbing (Extreme Alpinism, by Mark Twight) starts out with the simple sentence, “Climbing is a mental game.”  (Follow that up with his protege, Steve House’s book, “Training for the Uphill Athlete”, for ultramarathoners and ski mountaineers, and it’s a good picture of the basics required... Some cross overs there to sailing.)

 
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accnick

Super Anarchist
4,050
2,969
47 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

GA aircraft design has been as affected by regulation as sailing as been affected by racing rules. In aviation, the role of rule makers is played by the slow, and very conservative FAA certification process. Your brand new Cessna comes with an engine based on 1930s technology. Things like fuel injection and computer controls are just starting to show up. And a 100hp airplane engine cost 10 times as much as a LA crate engine, and has to be torn down completely for overhaul the equivalent of every 30K-50K miles.

Discussed here: 


Flying and sailing have a lot in common, but aircraft ownership is a different animal.

You don't normally invite your friends over to sit around in the cockpit of your airplane and have a drink. And you don't have a beer while flying.

 

El Borracho

Barkeeper’s Friend
7,200
3,120
Pacific Rim
Flying and sailing have a lot in common, but aircraft ownership is a different animal.

You don't normally invite your friends over to sit around in the cockpit of your airplane and have a drink. And you don't have a beer while flying.
And airplanes tend to receive inspection and maintenance prior to component failure. Imagine checking a marine engine for visible faults, draining sumps, inspecting the steering systems, sails for broken threads. etc. before each daysail.

 

Blue Crab

benthivore
17,521
3,275
Outer Banks
And airplanes tend to receive inspection and maintenance prior to component failure. Imagine checking a marine engine for visible faults, draining sumps, inspecting the steering systems, sails for broken threads. etc. before each daysail.
I was struck with the apparent laziness of some who won't bother checking for water in fuel per video. 

I had a bud with a turbo Centurion. Dang if he didn't manually pump up the same tire before every flight. 

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
48,044
11,712
Eastern NC
There were several bad events about that time. It turned out that sailing 19th century vessels in the 20th century is just as hazardous as it was sailing them back in the day.
I'd argue that it given modern weather forecasting, it's considerably less dangerous.... but the basic hazards of vessel type/configuration cannot be overcome when you roll snake eyes, which is occasionally going to happen.

I sailed aboard a couple of replicas, it always strikes me as so much hard work to build them and keep them afloat and sail them... but then, they are much much closer to the sticks-and-rocks end of the pipeline than we are today (we started in the woods, naked, with nothing but sticks and rocks).

FB- Doug

 


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