Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[Bryanjb]

^^ nice, Ordered, thanks

"the evidence shows casualties that have been considered acts of god probably resulted from an ignorance or neglect of age-old practices of seamanship." 

Yea, often the case when you look closely.  There is definitely 'bad luck happened', but seamanship is designed to see you thru most of it.

We've met a lot of cruisers who've begun sailing late in life.  Tough to learn seamanship without experience but to their credit they seem proficient and cautious.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Were I building a boat for high latitudes work it'd be one of the multi-chine designs with a hydraulic lifting daggerboard. In steel. I can't see how the interior can work in less than 15m LOD and ~4m of beam though so it's then a lot of boat to handle with small crew.

FKT

I would just buy this one  

https://www.oceanyachtsales.com/boats-for-sale/1993-caroff-47-4512596/

Already sold.  Someone got a hell of a very well outfitted boat, tons of spares, tools, etc.  Only C$150K.  At 47’, bit more boat than I want, however. (She used to be run as an expedition/classroom boat for a program called “Students on Ice”.)

 

[TwoLegged]

Q: Why didn't the English invent television?

A: The couldn't figure out a way to make it leak oil.

Brilliant. I gonna steal that.

 

[Corryvreckan]

I would just buy this one  

https://www.oceanyachtsales.com/boats-for-sale/1993-caroff-47-4512596/

Already sold.  Someone got a hell of a very well outfitted boat, tons of spares, tools, etc.  Only C$150K.  At 47’, bit more boat than I want, however. (She used to be run as an expedition/classroom boat for a program called “Students on Ice”.)

That is a pretty sweet looking deal. Bit of step up from the Collander 25 I currently sail.

 

[estarzinger]

^^

is that the boat Grant Redvers was running? or is it a second hull/copy?  Grant's boat did not sail very well, but you could ram a battleship with it and the battleship would come off 2nd best.

We've met a lot of cruisers who've begun sailing late in life.  Tough to learn seamanship without experience but to their credit they seem proficient and cautious.

Yea, I'm impressed by what some people manage when they are retired and then start sailing. I am super happy we went sailing when we were young.  We could have any boat we wanted now, which was not so much the case back then . . . but way overriding that there is the age thing, and then parents, and then what covid has done to international travel, and some other factors . . . . I think if we had waited until now we almost certainly would not have been able to do what we did . . . and I am a better person for having told the Corporate World to fuck off

 

[MFH125]

and I am a better person for having told the Corporate World to fuck off

Story of my not very lucrative life.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

^^

is that the boat Grant Redvers was running? or is it a second hull/copy?  Grant's boat did not sail very well, but you could ram a battleship with it and the battleship would come off 2nd best.

Yea, I'm impressed by what some people manage when they are retired and then start sailing. I am super happy we went sailing when we were young.  We could have any boat we wanted now, which was not so much the case back then . . . but way overriding that there is the age thing, and then parents, and then what covid has done to international travel, and some other factors . . . . I think if we had waited until now we almost certainly would not have been able to do what we did . . . and I am a better person for having told the Corporate World to fuck off

I think so - rings a bell.  Yeah, she looks like she’s a heavy beast.  A real workhorse - among other things, even comes with a shore survival kit (since being stranded ashore in some places up there, whether a polar bear has destroyed your dinghy or the mother ship had to pull anchor and scoot away because of deteriorating conditions, you could be in trouble, of course.). Special purpose vessel, for sure.  A bit much even for the average “adventure cruiser”.

(Indeed...corporate world is best kept far at bay.  I was working at Moody’s years ago, and just as they started to go through the process of going public, to be spun off from the parent company, it started to get very unpleasant...different vibe entirely...I left soon after...alas, not to go cruising ) 

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

It can be difficult down there . . . . . but on the other hand . . . . . a couple young Italians have crossed it on a beach cat and all manor of small shitty plywood and fiberglass boats have done extensive cruising there.  We have two good friends who have spent a lot of time down there in 30' plywood boats (one french - home built light weight stitch and glue) and the other a plywood Golden Hind (an old UK 'coastal' bilge keel design). And Eric Forsyth was 3 times down there in a westsail 42 (Fiona). I am not recommending this (just to be crystal clear for the peanut gallery), and it obviously increases the risks and places more on the skipper's shoulders (and it would help to be young), I don't know what this says about "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics:" but you don't absolutely need a battleship to go down there. 

The absolute greatest barrier for Chile, is that it is simply a long way away, across several weather zone.  It is a pretty huge commitment just to get there.  If somehow you could sail thru a portal and be immediately in Puerto Williams, it would all probably be viewed as rather less intimidating. 

We’re starting to diverge again into desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore sailors (not yachts) .  (Nothing wrong with that, of course, and the topics are certainly related).

If that Golden Hind sailor is the same one who later wintered over in the Canadian Arctic, then I’d guess his/their seamanship credentials are impeccable...(as for the Italians, I assume not the same ones who wrote the Italian guide?!  Impressive in a beach cat).  

Indeed - it is a very long way away: the first barrier to entry seems like it’s having a good vessel (and skills) just to *get* there.  (I view my recent purchase of a very cheap take-apart Luke anchor as the first symbolic step ) Certainly seems easier to get there if starting from S. Africa, for example - “just” a loop around the S. Atlantic.  My oldest childhood friend now lives in Ecuador, which would afford a good midway stop - but going down that side of S. America from N. America certainly doesn’t seem easy. (I recall Hal Roth talking about that in his classic Cape Horn book.)

 

[estarzinger]

for the Italians, I assume not the same ones who wrote the Italian guide?! 

No some quite young guys, I met them, but dont know them. Mariolina & Giorgio (on the guide) sailed an Amel.

If that Golden Hind sailor is the same one who later wintered over in the Canadian Arctic, then his seamanship credentials are impeccable.

Yes, he is a bit of an "extra tall" story teller . . but is a good seaman.

My oldest childhood friend now lives in Ecuador, 

Nice, and potentially helpful. But yea, while it is doable, but that is a not so great upwind way to get there.

 

[estarzinger]

Special purpose vessel, for sure.  A bit much even for the average “adventure cruiser”.

I had a friend who almost bought Seamaster/Tara which was the real deal for serious ice in a 'yacht' but I convinced them it was not right for them and they later thanked me - they were Italians with a sense of style and would never have felt right in the boat as it was just too brutal. 

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

That’s such a stereotype - but so true (about Italians, generally) .  No surprise that they make beautiful but rugged, world-class leather alpine climbing boots - and very swanky men’s and women’s dress shoes too 

 

[Cruisin Loser]

Hiya Cruising,

Up to and into the 30's yes, and better than me (which might not be a high bar  ). When the wind/sea state picked up I'd engage the pilot and then stand in the cabinway and watch the helm, adjusting everything till the wheel was moving a few inches at a time. The big difference between the electronic brain and me was it would react earlier and with less input, ie: as soon as the heel of the boat changed from a passing wave picking up a corner of the boat.    

There were a couple of things you had to keep in mind:

- Hard core VMG mode doesn't work well in big seas. If I was set to say 40-45 TWA, going over a wave can push you head to wind and every now and then the pilot could struggle to put enough helm into it to correct it. As the sea state increased I'd add some buffer in and fall off to 55-60 TWA. It would handle that all day. Same thing for DDW, I wouldn't have the pilot on below 160TWA in big seas. 

-Shit in-shit out still holds true. The pilot is only as good as the inputs, and the input sensors all have a bonkers amount of correction and sample rate adjustments you can apply. It took time to get the optimal settings worked out. We used to get a lot of upwash over the masthead when running deep with a full main which would throw out your Apparent wind speed/angle, so I had to work out an autopilot mode for that for example.  

- Comfort. Like the inputs, the output (helm response) is adjustable. You could set it to aggressive and in big seas it would track on rails but the motion is violent. Or you could back off to a more leisurely setting so you can make a cup of tea but the course track would be more vague and wander about the heading somewhat. That was the key to running close-hauled or deep when you had to, simply set the AP to be more aggressive. Big difference in helm response. 

 But in short, absolutely I trusted the AP in big seas without a full crew. 

Cheers!

SB

Edit: I only used it once in 40 knots plus, and that was on a broad reach under white sails with too much sail up and it handled it fine. You're planing though and bow up, so the pilot isn't working that hard bizarrely. But man there is a big difference from 30's to 40's, 30's is enjoyable, 40's is not.       

That is cool. I figured that would be sorted out, since the singlehanders racing those types clearly aren't hand-steering trans-Atlantic. Reinforces my opinion that that is one of the coolest cruising boats on the planet.

I'm still not parting with Restive, as she meets with the wife's approval.

 

[toddster]

Q: Why didn't the English invent television?

A: The couldn't figure out a way to make it leak oil.

They must not have tried very hard... compound lens systems (e.g. in projection TV's) are oil-filled.  Refractive index and all that.  Here, I've got a few in my optics junk box...

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

I would just buy this one  

https://www.oceanyachtsales.com/boats-for-sale/1993-caroff-47-4512596/

Already sold.  Someone got a hell of a very well outfitted boat, tons of spares, tools, etc.  Only C$150K.  At 47’, bit more boat than I want, however. (She used to be run as an expedition/classroom boat for a program called “Students on Ice”.)

Yeah you couldn't build it for that price even doing it yourself.

That's the sort of hull I'd had in mind though a bit smaller. The killer is the daggerboard and the amount of space it takes up.

As for getting to Chile it's easy from where I live. Not necessarily *pleasant*, but easy. Downwind run in the 40's.

FKT

 

[estarzinger]

" easy "

uh-huh ^_^  

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

uh-huh ^_^  

Been done lots of times by lots of people. Running down the 40's.

Easy. Not pleasant.

FKT

 

[estarzinger]

Been done lots of times by lots of people. Running down the 40's.

Easy. Not pleasant.

FKT

I've actually done most of it - we left from Dunedin 

.....

I also did 59 days non-stop in the 40's . . cape horn to perth

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

I've actually done most of it - we left from Dunedin 

Respect - it's a long way on a big ocean that can play rough.

I used to spend 2-3 months every year down there in a big ship mostly south of 50 up until I retired. Running down the 40's is one thing, I'd do that in a suitable boat, going into the 50's and closer to the 60's in a small boat takes a lot more ability and willingness to take risks than I have the stomach for.

FKT

 

[estarzinger]

I was not disagreeing with your overall thought . . . but perhaps just quibbling casually about the word choice -  it crossed my mind whether 'easy' was really the best word choice. Not adding anything useful to Jud's thread.

as you said in your 2nd post its like 5,000nm in a big ocean - not only can it play rough, but in between the rough, you can be becalmed in big swell.  

I might have tried 'not complicated'  . . but even that does not feel exactly right 

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

I was not disagreeing with your overall thought . . . but perhaps just quibbling casually about the word choice -  it crossed my mind whether 'easy' was really the best word choice. Not adding anything useful to Jud's thread.

as you said in your 2nd post its like 5,000nm in a big ocean - not only can it play rough, but in between the rough, you can be becalmed in big swell.  

I might have tried 'not complicated'  . . but even that does not feel exactly right 

I was thinking more of the prevailing winds and currents when I said 'easy'. That's why I also said 'not pleasant'.

As for the boat characteristics thing, I think it depends on your use-case, number of crew, physical fitness and willingness to take risks as much as it does the vessel. And what 'offshore' means to you which is heavily dependent on your latitude. Here it means sailing in the 40's as soon as you leave Storm Bay with everything that implies. New Zealand is closest and ~10 days to Bluff, maybe 6 in a fast boat. How good is the forecasting? Friends of mine did 11 days Hobart to Nelson in a pretty much brand new 40' cutter, left on a perfect forecast, one gale and 16 hours in a nasty cross sea with no wind before they got there. Even crossing Bass Strait it's maybe 70 hours Schouten Island to Eden.

So really hard to say without specifying distance and latitude. It seems pretty much anything that floats can go downwind in the tropics. High latitudes in the southern hemisphere seem to be a lot more rough weather than the northern ones or at least the distances to shelter are much greater.

FKT