Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[DDW]

and heaving too is really not an option any more.  

???

Don't know about a Pogo, but most cruising boats can be made to heave to effectively. Even mine. It is, I'll admit, a lost art. 

I have the book and have read it long ago. The one theme that is still true (also the theme of Marchaj's book on the same subject): racing rules still have an outsized and inappropriate influence on cruising boat design.

 

[accnick]

And so on.  Pretty boat of grandpa's era, optimised for slogging to windward offshore, but in nearly every respect significantly inferior to a modern design

To each his own. "Slogging to windward offshore" describes a significant part of some of the classic offshore point-to-point races, and a fair amount of offshore cruising. Life is not necessarily a reach.

This is not the boat I would build today, but she is a great seaboat that has always kept her crew safe, and has done very well racing to Bermuda.

She has already held up better over time than a lot of boats  are likely to do.

"Traditional" and "classic" have different meanings to different people.

 

[El Borracho]

As a reminder, a lot of people on this forum either own 40-year-old designs, or are looking to buy them. Not everyone can afford the latest and greatest design. In that regard, a lot of the info in the book is relevant.

The Swan 44 and Bermuda 40 (and others from that era) that inspired a multi-page spirited discussion here recently? Both of those designs were decades old when this book was published.

It may seem quaint to say it, but while the equipment may change, the ocean doesn't change, nor do the elements of seamanship.

I had the great good fortune to know and sail with many of those who provided input to this book. Their collective wisdom trumps the sniping from the peanut gallery here over how old-fashioned and outdated the book seems today.

If you don't understand where we came from, you are clueless about where we are going.

The sailors from the 18th and 19th century called. Those sailors sailed a million times more sea miles than these self-appointed pundits. They think the book is a dangerous attempt to legitimize foolish yacht designs. Those authors did make some worthwhile contributions, for the time, but would be much wiser to quietly step aside and be quiet (STFU) rather than attempt the indefensible dance from progressive to regressive.

 

[TwoLegged]

"Traditional" and "classic" have different meanings to different people.

Indeed, so they aren't really much use unless defined.  But it's hard to defend using the word "traditional" to describe the brief fashions of 1971

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

I've read it, although it's probably been a decade since I picked it up.

The book was published in 1987 and spends a lot of time making specific recommendations about boat design and outfitting.  It's by definition dated. 

Some of it is hopelessly dated.  No one should be following Rod Stephen's recommendations for halyard materials or Thomas Young's suggestions for navigational equipment from the mid 80s.  The technology has just changed too much.  The sections are still worth reading, for people interested in the topics.  You can still learn a lot from their general approach and philosophy, but specific recommendations are often out of date.

Other areas just feel passe.  Bill Lapworth's recommendations about cockpit design aren't wrong.  He favors a small cockpit that will drain quickly if it floods.  But in an era of open cockpits that drain very quickly through the transom, his thoughts are... just old fashioned.  Similarly, skeg-hung rudders still have their virtues, but decades of experience has generated a consensus that spade rudders are best for most boats.  The conversation has just moved on.  A lot of the book feels this way.  The discussion of stability is really focused on the particular stability concerns of IOR-style boats.  It's not wrong, it's not irrelevant, but today it's feels myopic.

There are, of course, areas that will still be totally relevant today.  Even in the sections that are most outdated, you will find interesting points and good recommendations. My guess is that the areas on the cabin are probably still very worth reading.  Hell, many modern boats would benefit from their builders reading the section on ventilation. 

If you find yourself curious about the book, it's well worth the read.  But yeah, it reflects the yachting world of 35 years ago.

I am curious about Rousmaniere’s book as part of a broader understanding of “boat stuff”.  I didn’t grow up racing, and never got involved in it later, to my detriment, so IOR, etc etc doesn’t mean much to me.  I need to upgrade my knowledge.

I’m on a bit of a marine intellectual tear these days.  My recent/current foray into getting a new mainsail made has hit home just how little I know- and that’s the beauty of this sport/activity - lifelong learning, from metallurgy and celestial navigation, to laminar flow, fibreglassing, and beyond.  Who knew that there are varnishes developed with high coefficients of friction?  I’d never heard those words before getting into sailing/cruising.  My father, while he taught me to sail and enjoyed sail trim and how sailing works, didn’t get deep into sailing technicalities.  Which is just as well -we simply enjoyed sailing together, and in fact it may have turned me off the sport as a kid to have technicalities heaved at me - in contrast to my daughter, who has grown up dinghy sailing and really grooves on sailing geekery/technical stuff - which is pretty inspiring to me to learn more!

One of the sailmakers I’m working with recommended reading “Sail Power”, by Wallace Ross - apparently considered a ‘classic’ on the fundamentals and details of sails.  And of course once you’re on Amazon, the algorithm starts pumping recommended books to you - in fact, all books I know of, ‘classics’ in the field that I’ve heard of over the years, but that I’ve just never found the time to read.  I’m not an engineer and don’t really have an engineer’s analytical mind, I can only try - so I like books that can help walk me through the how and why of it all, without assuming I understand what the various calculated measures of hull performance are, like “capsize screening ratio”, etc. Otherwise my eyes glaze over.  I don’t understand the significance of finer points of hull design and physics.

So, my reading list - who knows if I’ll ever have time to get into it - but what’s the rush?  In addition to ‘Desirable and Undesirable...’:

-’Sail Power’, Wallace Ross

-‘Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor’, Marchaj (I’m possibly shying away from this as I think it may be loaded with engineering calcs/formulas...as interesting as they may be applied to boats, I have an easier time grasping obscure  electrical circuit theory/calcs, like Power Factor Correction  )  But maybe it’s because I’ve zero background in aeronautics/mech eng, where a lot of marine engineering math comes from)

-‘Heavy Weather Sailing’, Adlard Coles

-‘Complete Riggers Apprentice’, Brion Toss 

Have just bought Beth Leonard’s book (undoubtedly with a wee bit of input from @estarzinger  ) - as a “compendium” of ideas on cruising boats, to understand their approach and analysis, based on lots of miles sailed.  Seems like it’ll help tie lots of diverse strands together.

And let’s not even get into splicing modern braids, wing sails, and the like.  That starts getting into rocket science

 

[accnick]

The one theme that is still true (also the theme of Marchaj's book on the same subject): racing rules still have an outsized and inappropriate influence on cruising boat design.

Absolute gospel.

All rating rules are intended to measure and incorporate performance-enhancing characteristics, such as length, displacement, sail area, and stability. Older rules such as the IOR and its predecessors that rely on point and proxy measurements and low-angle stability measurement to approximate performance-driving characteristics end up falling short in the long run.

All you have to do is look at very early IOR designs and compare them to boats designed just a few years later to the same rule. No one who was designing a boat for any purpose other than rating optimization would ever come up with many of those design characteristics.

Generally speaking, designers are a lot more clever than rule-writers.

 

[Diarmuid]

As a reminder, a lot of people on this forum either own 40-year-old designs, or are looking to buy them. Not everyone can afford the latest and greatest design. In that regard, a lot of the info in the book is relevant.

The Swan 44 and Bermuda 40 (and others from that era) that inspired a multi-page spirited discussion here recently? Both of those designs were decades old when this book was published.

It may seem quaint to say it, but while the equipment may change, the ocean doesn't change, nor do the elements of seamanship.

I had the great good fortune to know and sail with many of those who provided input to this book. Their collective wisdom trumps the sniping from the peanut gallery here over how old-fashioned and outdated the book seems today.

If you don't understand where we came from, you are clueless about where we are going.

I own a copy of DAUCOOY and have read it a couple times. It has some very good information tucked in here and there. Mostly it is a protracted whinge by owners of CCA yachts that the (comparatively plebian) IOR scene has ruined their clubby gentleman-racer eminence and rendered their pampered yawls obsolete except as cruising boats. They point with the stem of a briarwood pipe to the pinched ends, the broad beams, the large headsails driven by the IOR rating rules and say: Tsk, tsk. While ignoring the absurd overhangs, slack bilges, and stupid little mizzens on their own boats, equally rule-driven. Also, Europeans were good at IOR boats, so a pox on all their houses.

The book is a sort of fetishism, an exercise in cargo-cult boat design. Maybe if we build little CCA yawls out of popsicle sticks and set them in a shrine and burn a really fine pipe tobacco before the altar, the good old days of graceful underballasted-yet-still-grossly-heavy patrician racing craft will return. Hear us, Lord Olin!

 

[accnick]

The book is a sort of fetishism, an exercise in cargo-cult boat design. Maybe if we build little CCA yawls out of popsicle sticks and set them in a shrine and burn a really fine pipe tobacco before the altar, the good old days of graceful underballasted-yet-still-grossly-heavy patrician racing craft will return. Hear us, Lord Olin!

I think you sort of missed the point of it all.

 

[Elegua]

I own a copy of DAUCOOY and have read it a couple times. It has some very good information tucked in here and there. Mostly it is a protracted whinge by owners of CCA yachts that the (comparatively plebian) IOR scene has ruined their clubby gentleman-racer eminence and rendered their pampered yawls obsolete except as cruising boats. They point with the stem of a briarwood pipe to the pinched ends, the broad beams, the large headsails driven by the IOR rating rules and say: Tsk, tsk. While ignoring the absurd overhangs, slack bilges, and stupid little mizzens on their own boats, equally rule-driven. Also, Europeans were good at IOR boats, so a pox on all their houses.

The book is a sort of fetishism, an exercise in cargo-cult boat design. Maybe if we build little CCA yawls out of popsicle sticks and set them in a shrine and burn a really fine pipe tobacco before the altar, the good old days of graceful underballasted-yet-still-grossly-heavy patrician racing craft will return. Hear us, Lord Olin!

Well, few (at least I wouldn't) would argue against IOR doing a lot of unhealthy things to yacht design, which is really what the book is a response to. 

 

[TwoLegged]

Brilliant, @Diarmuid.  I had mulled tacking a direct pop at the cult of Saint Olin, but didn't feel up to the flames.  And now you have done it much better than I would.

Anyway, as they burn you alive on the NYYC's lawn at Newport, I will pray for your mortal soul and say three Hail Centreboards for you.

 

[TwoLegged]

Well, few (at least I wouldn't) would argue against IOR doing a lot of unhealthy things to yacht design, which is really what the book is a response to. 

You have a bit of a point there ... except that this bunch of East Coast blazer-wearers looked in the wrong direction for remedies.  Instead of looking at what the French and Kiwis were doing to sail on the water, these reactionaries looked behind them at their own pasts of lugging weight through water, and congratulated themselves.

 

[Diarmuid]

I think you sort of missed the point of it all.

No, I didn't. I am very good at reading and analyzing texts. You seem rather heavily invested in the people and philosophies embodied in the book, which is fine. But appeals to authority, 'wisdom', and 'common sense' are intrinsically weak arguments, and this anthology is all that. 

The greatest (and most amusing) tension in the book is the feeling of betrayal that the same idols who designed their preferred boats and rating rules went off and created the IOR. The God Abandons Antony.

Musical rendering of same:

 

[Ishmael]

I read it years ago, and it's an interesting read, if only for historical perspective. It has a place in any reasonable library alongside the other good books in the genre, but doesn't deserve pride of place.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

???

Don't know about a Pogo, but most cruising boats can be made to heave to effectively. Even mine. It is, I'll admit, a lost art. 

I have the book and have read it long ago. The one theme that is still true (also the theme of Marchaj's book on the same subject): racing rules still have an outsized and inappropriate influence on cruising boat design.

This morning, I was just scanning Webb Chiles’ blog (pardon: “journal”; he hates that ugly, modern portmanteau word) and he’s anticipating leaving for a sail out to Bermuda and back (not stopping there).  Having studied forecasts he writes, “Every seven day GRIB has shown variable wind from every direction, usually with two or three 180º shifts.  So if you observe on the Yellowbrick tracking page that GANNET has stopped or is moving very slowly, don’t be alarmed.  I am not going to beat up the little boat or myself. If we encounter strong headwinds, I will slow down or heave to and wait for the certain change.”

I frankly didn’t know that a ULDB like a Moore 24 could heave to.  The Pardey’s, of course, are/were big proponents of heaving to as a storm tactic and general means to stop/bring a boat under control offshore - with a strong suggestion that fuller keeled boats would work better for this.  
 

Can a Moore 24 really heave to?  Is this just a terminology thing?  What Chiles means by heaving to is different from what the Pardeys meant by it?  Clearly, these are very different kinds of boats.  (Too bad we can’t invite him to the discussion - huge experience in a wide range of boats and conditions; would be very interesting indeed to get his take on things.  Paging Webb?  Ah, he’s probably too busy getting ready to untie the lines and go [link to his YellowBrick tracker]...)

Moore 24 specs: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/moore-24

Taleisin specs: https://www.woodenboat.com/register-wooden-boats/taleisin-victoria-0

 

[Ishmael]

I have heaved to (how awkward is that phrase?) on every boat I have owned, from a 16' Wayfarer to the current C&C 35. They will all do it, but sometimes you have to fiddle a bit...

 

[accnick]

I read it years ago, and it's an interesting read, if only for historical perspective. It has a place in any reasonable library alongside the other good books in the genre, but doesn't deserve pride of place.

Like virtually every sailing-related book, you have to put it in the context of its time. Not many of them hold up if you view them as textbooks of absolutes.

You have a lot of classic sailing reading in that book case. I see at least one book there that I wrote a lot of.

 

[Ishmael]

Like virtually every sailing-related book, you have to put it in the context of its time. Not many of them hold up if you view them as textbooks of absolutes.

The bibles of yesteryear have some interesting tidbits, but not many prescriptions for the modern age. Eric Hiscock's Cruising under Sail  is a prime example.

 

[Elegua]

You have a bit of a point there ... except that this bunch of East Coast blazer-wearers looked in the wrong direction for remedies.  Instead of looking at what the French and Kiwis were doing to sail on the water, these reactionaries looked behind them at their own pasts of lugging weight through water, and congratulated themselves.

Well, this is where we differ.  Having actually read the book, I agree that it is dated, but: a) dated doesn't always equal bad, and b) I think there are some valuable ideas expressed, even if they are expressed by East Coast blazer wearers and if you understand the context.  

As for me, I'm not set on any one set of design characteristics.  Assuming they meet the standards I'm looking at, they are just trade-offs to me. I'm looking for what works best for my sailing goals.   I've spent enough time onshore and offshore in a variety of vessels, racing and not, planing and not, CCA, IOR, IMS, IRC...to have a vague idea I what works for me and my family when cruising.   Accordingly, I've ended up with a strange boat with a strange lineage that according to the "common knowledge" as expressed by some is completely wrong, including having the wrong kind of dinghy.  I even have the wrong kind of anchor (actually that is a fact proved by empirical evidence).  

 

[Blue Crab]

I'll betcha ol' ACCNICK knows a little something about shining those brass buttons on his blazer.

 

[Kris Cringle]

I have heaved to (how awkward is that phrase?) on every boat I have owned, from a 16' Wayfarer to the current C&C 35. They will all do it, but sometimes you have to fiddle a bit...

Me too,...on heaving to(both points). It's the term that is difficult, not the maneuver. 

I find saying it this way is less awkward; 'After furling the mainsail, I rather enjoy just sitting while the boat is,... hove to'.