Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[shaggybaxter]

Desirable: 

- a keel that stays attached; 

- rudder/post that can't flood the boat when it fails;

- an emergency tiller system that works;

- no leaks; 

- ruggedised electronics;

- a dedicated 'wets' area that does not involve a washing line across the main cabin; and 

- a galley that works in big seas. 

Undesirable; 

- Not having the above.   

 

[ProaSailor]

It’s both a desirable and undesirable feature of my offshore yacht  I like it for its ability to let light below and provide an easy means to see out when the boat is closed up - but I’ve yet to solve the condensation problem it can create in winter (haven’t tried yet b/c hasn’t been a priority).

KAURI, 35 years ago.

 

[estarzinger]

Desirable: 

- a keel that stays attached; 

- rudder/post that can't flood the boat when it fails;

- an emergency tiller system that works;

- no leaks; 

- ruggedised electronics;

- a dedicated 'wets' area that does not involve a washing line across the main cabin; and 

- a galley that works in big seas. 

Undesirable; 

- Not having the above.   

Shags . . .there are a huge number of things which are 'desirable' in a vacuum (like say a price of free for a pogo would be desirable   ), but Idk how we work into such a list that there are trade-offs and compromises and priorities.

regarding priorities - I agree all you listed is a desirable, but I personally would have put (just as two random examples of a long list) the ability to sail well upwind into ocean seas, and seabunks usable on all points of sail, rather higher on the list than your wets area.

And with a list approach idk how we deal with the how 'stability' area, which was critical to the original concept (of desirable and undesirable) - how does a cat's massive initial stability, both right side up and upside down get factored?  I know what that generation of the CCA and NYYC thought, but the world has evolved and also we are talking about cruising here

 

[shaggybaxter]

Shags . . .there are a huge number of things which are 'desirable' in a vacuum (like say a price of free for a pogo would be desirable   ), but Idk how we work into such a list that there are trade-offs and compromises and priorities.

regarding priorities - I agree all you listed is a desirable, but I personally would have put (just as two random examples of a long list) the ability to sail well upwind into ocean seas, and seabunks usable on all points of sail, rather higher on the list than your wets area.

Happy to be corrected Estar, and I agree, both of these should be at the top of the list.

Lemme just add them quietly in....  

 

[estarzinger]

Happy to be corrected Estar, and I agree, both of these should be at the top of the list.

Lemme just add them quietly in....  

I am curious - for 'serious' offshore work, like a shoulder season N atlantic crossing - how do you feel about pogo stability?  It is obviously just fine for even heavy duty coastal (several nights) sailing . . . . 

edit: I'm also curious - running in big breaking waves - keel down or up?

 

[Ishmael]

I am curious - for 'serious' offshore work, like a shoulder season N atlantic crossing - how do you feel about pogo stability?  It is obviously just fine for even heavy duty coastal (several nights) sailing . . . . 

edit: I'm also curious - running in big breaking waves - keel down or up?

I prefer to keep the keel down in any kind of weather.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Damn, I love this thread.  
 

But what was the OP’s intention?  To inflame passions and incite argument?  To draw out competing schools of thought to hash out a complex skein of ideas, technologies, opinions, fads and whatnot?  To while away his idle hours in between bouts of creative time at work?  How dare he suck us into this ultimately unanswerable vortex of marine chaos 

 

[estarzinger]

I prefer to keep the keel down in any kind of weather.

I was wondering about the trade-off - keel up would (I think) be more directionally stable running in big waves, while keep down would provide greater righting moment & AVS. 

Most of the French high latitude cruisers I know with flat bottom boats seemed to run with keep up, but those are different than the pogo.

  On Silk we ran with keel up, but again was different . . .  it was not ballasted so did not add much to righting moment, and it was not very 'tight' so when running it had a tendency to bang back and forth a bit.

 

[Ishmael]

I was wondering about the trade-off - keel up would (I think) be more directionally stable running in big waves, while keep down would provide greater righting moment & AVS. 

Most of the French high latitude cruisers I know with flat bottom boats seemed to run with keep up, but those are different than the pogo.

  On Silk we ran with keel up, but again was different . . .  it was not ballasted so did not add much to righting moment, and it was not very 'tight' so when running it had a tendency to bang back and forth a bit.

I was actually taking the mickey, since I have a fixed (hopefully) keel. Keel up is never a good look in most cases.

 

[Elegua]

I was wondering about the trade-off - keel up would (I think) be more directionally stable running in big waves, while keep down would provide greater righting moment & AVS. 

Most of the French high latitude cruisers I know with flat bottom boats seemed to run with keep up, but those are different than the pogo.

  On Silk we ran with keel up, but again was different . . .  it was not ballasted so did not add much to righting moment, and it was not very 'tight' so when running it had a tendency to bang back and forth a bit.

Those French centerboarders technically don't have the worlds best AVS, while I've read they get knocked over occasionally, and sometimes stay there longer than what might be comfortable, they rarely go over. They weeble-wobble, but they don't go down..

According to the curves Zonker with the board up you go from 1250 to 1000 and the negative area of the curve gets much bigger....

Given the struggle to keep things dry and salt free-ish, I do have sympathies with the desire for a wets area. I'm about to give up some aft cabin space for that. 

 

[shaggybaxter]

I am curious - for 'serious' offshore work, like a shoulder season N atlantic crossing - how do you feel about pogo stability?  It is obviously just fine for even heavy duty coastal (several nights) sailing . . . . 

I'm also curious - running in big breaking waves - keel down or up?

I haven't done an ocean crossing on her so the following is only based on offshore work. I never felt nor worried about  issues with stability, even when we stupidly lifted the keel on a broad reach under full kite in 20+ knots. That was a good test to do in hindsight, the boat was still driveable and didn't round up or down, just felt sluggish and more tippy, (heel was about 40 degrees). I found out post that event it still rates near class B under ISO even when the keel is up, so that made me feel more comfortable. 

Unsure how to express it clinically, but I've always felt my confidence increase the more the wind and sea state increases. Kinda like some cars, where it feels more and more planted as everything goes north. 30 knots and 3-5 mtrs seas even beating to windward slightly cracked is fun, as long as you don't try and hold 35TWA.

I would be tempted to go back to the original tiller for blue water mode rather than the wheels for one big reason, as the helm position is outboard and rearward so the inherent stiffness is quite violent when beating in really big seas. Sitting down is fine, but I have never got the knack for sitting while helming, so I notice it more as I'm always standing.   

Yes you can sail with the keel up and while it is fun I've always found the averages to be slower. With the keel up the ballast (approx 2000kgs) is now 3 mtrs behind the centre of the boat so the transom gets glued as the wind lightens up and you lose the rock solid feel the draft gives you. Fun for an ideal downwind leg, but in variable conditions I found it is not worth the penalty to do all the time.

Cheers! 

SB

Edit: In the rare times when you are in really foul conditions, I found it is the slamming as you fall of the wave peak that is the worst part, both for the crew and the boat. In that regard I can attest it slams far less than some of the half/tonners I've sailed on, it's pretty well rounded forrard of the keel. 

 

[estarzinger]

^^interesting. thanks.  

Do you carry a drogue?

I guess it is a hard thing to assess because we are all so rarely in big breaking wave conditions. 

 

[shaggybaxter]

^^interesting. thanks.  

Do you carry a drogue?

I guess it is a hard thing to assess because we are all so rarely in big breaking wave conditions. 

Yes, I bought a Jordan series drogue but it never saw the light of day aside from testing retrieval in calm conditions. I though it was mandatory as I didn't think I could heave to, that was another fallacy. The worse conditions we saw was 40's and maybe 3-5mtrs seas max, in that the boat still had impeccable manners.  

 

[Misbehavin']

I haven't done an ocean crossing on her so the following is only based on offshore work. I never felt nor worried about  issues with stability, even when we stupidly lifted the keel on a broad reach under full kite in 20+ knots. That was a good test to do in hindsight, the boat was still driveable and didn't round up or down, just felt sluggish and more tippy, (heel was about 40 degrees). I found out post that event it still rates near class B under ISO even when the keel is up, so that made me feel more comfortable. 

Unsure how to express it clinically, but I've always felt my confidence increase the more the wind and sea state increases. Kinda like some cars, where it feels more and more planted as everything goes north. 30 knots and 3-5 mtrs seas even beating to windward slightly cracked is fun, as long as you don't try and hold 35TWA.

I would be tempted to go back to the original tiller for blue water mode rather than the wheels for one big reason, as the helm position is outboard and rearward so the inherent stiffness is quite violent when beating in really big seas. Sitting down is fine, but I have never got the knack for sitting while helming, so I notice it more as I'm always standing.   

Yes you can sail with the keel up and while it is fun I've always found the averages to be slower. With the keel up the ballast (approx 2000kgs) is now 3 mtrs behind the centre of the boat so the transom gets glued as the wind lightens up and you lose the rock solid feel the draft gives you. Fun for an ideal downwind leg, but in variable conditions I found it is not worth the penalty to do all the time.

Cheers! 

SB

Edit: In the rare times when you are in really foul conditions, I found it is the slamming as you fall of the wave peak that is the worst part, both for the crew and the boat. In that regard I can attest it slams far less than some of the half/tonners I've sailed on, it's pretty well rounded forrard of the keel. 

Interesting points. Have you sold the Pogo and bought another boat yet?

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Yes, I bought a Jordan series drogue but it never saw the light of day aside from testing retrieval in calm conditions. I though it was mandatory as I didn't think I could heave to, that was another fallacy. The worse conditions we saw was 40's and maybe 3-5mtrs seas max, in that the boat still had impeccable manners.  

Shaggy - what do you mean “I thought it mandatory”?  Was this for a race? (Or do you just mean “a really damn good idea to have on board”.  Where were you sailing, out of curiosity?

I’ll acquire a drogue shortly.

 

[shaggybaxter]

Interesting points. Have you sold the Pogo and bought another boat yet?

H Misbehavin,

Yep, she's sold. I'm playing with some past life motorsports stuff, I'll give it a few years then maybe see what happens.

Shaggy - what do you mean “I thought it mandatory”?  Was this for a race? (Or do you just mean “a really damn good idea to have on board”.  Where were you sailing, out of curiosity?

I’ll acquire a drogue shortly.

Hi J/V,

Sorry, I meant mandatory ie: damn good idea.  Before we took collection I had some expert muppet convince me that a Class 40 hull will heave to like a bag of shit, and the only survival mode for the boat is to put everything on the stern quarter and run with it.

I personally think slow is a much better survival mode than fast, so a drogue made a lot of sense. But after getting the boat we found it it hove to just fine, so that which gave me another survival mode and diluted the appeal of the drogue. I got it for some Sth Pacific legs we were planning on but never got to. I've never taken it for the coastal stuff, wouldn't be much fun jagging a coral bomby with one in a full gale  . 

 

[Veeger]

H Misbehavin,

Yep, she's sold. I'm playing with some past life motorsports stuff, I'll give it a few years then maybe see what happens.

Hi J/V,

Sorry, I meant mandatory ie: damn good idea.  Before we took collection I had some expert muppet convince me that a Class 40 hull will heave to like a bag of shit, and the only survival mode for the boat is to put everything on the stern quarter and run with it.

I personally think slow is a much better survival mode than fast, so a drogue made a lot of sense. But after getting the boat we found it it hove to just fine, so that which gave me another survival mode and diluted the appeal of the drogue. I got it for some Sth Pacific legs we were planning on but never got to. I've never taken it for the coastal stuff, wouldn't be much fun jagging a coral bomby with one in a full gale  . 

Wow!  Sold the Pogo already!  (I s'pose I can't talk much as I sold my Mainecat within 3 years of purchase...there were reasons though...not due to the boat)

 

[Cruisin Loser]

H Misbehavin,

Yep, she's sold. I'm playing with some past life motorsports stuff, I'll give it a few years then maybe see what happens.

Ah well. I live in a town where motorsports can be quite big. The Chaparral race cars were built here. My various friends have made the exotic car mistake, light airplane mistake, jet airplane mistake, cattle ranch mistake, race horse mistake, houses around the world mistake, 5th or 6th wife mistake, this after nearly all of us made the oil well mistake. I decided to take one for the team and make the sailboat mistake so none of my friends would feel obligated.

If you ever happen to find yourself in New England in the summer, buzz me up, I'd love to give you a ride on my 2nd favorite mistake. B)

 

[SloopJonB]

The Chaparral race cars were built here.

That made Midland a cool place in perpetuity.

 

[shaggybaxter]

Wow!  Sold the Pogo already!  (I s'pose I can't talk much as I sold my Mainecat within 3 years of purchase...there were reasons though...not due to the boat)

G'day Veeger,

Yep, same, nothing against the boat, I feel thankful for the 5 years I did get. I was pretty chuffed that the only defect at the time of sale was the boom bag was a bit tattered and the cabin stickers were faded, everything else was working like a charm.  

Thinking back now, all those sleepless nights prior to delivery, worrying about ordering a boat from half way round the world with no local support, turned out to be all unfounded. The boat did everything it said on the tin and the post sale support was really good. I'll be looking em up again in a few years for sure.