Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[estarzinger]

 What was Irens thoughts about a cruising tri? 

He had a 50' derivative of an ORMA 60.  It had gone thru a couple evolutions.  I guess originally someone had been trying to develop a racing class. And then it had turned into a custom.  And then it had been detuned just a tiny bit.  It terms of 'cruising' it was generally in the same corner as the pogo esthetic but was more specifically ocean capable.  Had good cockpit protection (quite like that recent scow open 40), very single hand-able - more 'creature comfort' than I really expected - all the details pretty well worked out and decently proved from the 60's.

 

[Elegua]

He had a 50' derivative of an ORMA 60.  It had gone thru a couple evolutions.  I guess originally someone had been trying to develop a racing class. And then it had turned into a custom.  And then it had been detuned just a tiny bit.  It terms of 'cruising' it was generally in the same corner as the pogo esthetic but was more specifically ocean capable.  Had good cockpit protection (quite like that recent scow open 40), very single hand-able - more 'creature comfort' than I really expected - all the details pretty well worked out and decently proved from the 60's.

Your Bialetti would fit perfectly, though the stainless one might be a bit heavy.  That would be a fun boat to blast across passages. Inflatable SUPs with carbon oars don't weigh that much anyways. 

 

[shaggybaxter]

Trimarans have felt to me much more like a light mono in motion, though my understanding is very limited as I've only owned dinghy sized ones and sailed on 30 something foot trimarans and never offshore.  It seemed to me more comfortable than the Open sort of thing.  So something like a de-tuned Mod70 or something closer to Rapido?  What was Irens thoughts about a cruising tri? 

I did some time on a Crowther 60' cat back when it seemed all the rage to keep pushing the mast further and further back (tiny main/huge headsail/huger...er kites) and increase the forward sheer to something resembling a ski jump. 

Going forward to the bow in any decent swell was rather interesting with the wind anywhere forrard of the mast.

It looked like a great candidate for running in the SO long swells, but I reckon it would not have been comfortable or well mannered , especially compared to the newer tris and cat designs from this century.   

 

[Autonomous]

Just so you know, Project Amazon was one of my ideal boats... A shame.

 

[Cruisin Loser]

Photo please !

Oh dear. I can hear the groans from the old timers here " please don't get him started". There is a pic on the boom brake thread, and several on page 129 of the "coolboats to admire thread".

 

[estarzinger]

Just so you know, Project Amazon was one of my ideal boats... A shame.

So, I am still curious from the crowd here - if you wanted to get an updated modernized version of this - who would you hire (designer and engineers)?

Oh dear. I can hear the groans from the old timers here " please don't get him started". 

oh come on, it is not like we are running out of space here - give us like 3 of the most beautiful pictures you have pls

 

[Bob Perry]

My effort to give the client his vision of the "ideal offshore yacht". His vision, not yours or mine.

 

[estarzinger]

My effort to give the client his vision of the "ideal offshore yacht.

is that the famous carbon cutter?

 

[MFH125]

So, I am still curious from the crowd here - if you wanted to get an updated modernized version of this - who would you hire (designer and engineers)?

Are we talking about trying to make a competitive cat ketch rigged Open 60? Then you probably want to go and get VPLP or similar designers with experience in open classes and access to computational tools for analysis and optimization.  CFD, etc. have their limitations, but if the cat ketch concept is genuinely not competitive, they can probably let you figure that out without the expense of building a whole boat.

If we're talking just a general high-performance cat ketch concept, then Tom Wylie is clearly someone to talk to.  He's already done an Open 60 with a free standing mast, and has experience with the cat ketch rig too on cruising boats.

I might talk to Paul Bieker or Nigel Irens about it too, just because I have a lot of respect for their abilities to translate interesting and unusual concepts into workable boats.

 

[estarzinger]

Are we talking about trying to make a competitive cat ketch rigged Open 60? Then you probably want to go and get VPLP or similar designers with experience in open classes and access to computational tools for analysis and optimization. 

If we're talking just a general high-performance cat ketch concept, then Tom Wylie is clearly someone to talk to.  He's already done an Open 60 with a free standing mast, and has experience with the cat ketch rig too on cruising boats.

I might talk to Paul Bieker or Nigel Irens about it too, just because I have a lot of respect for their abilities to translate interesting and unusual concepts into workable boats.

yea, it does not need to be actually 'competitive'  . . . and I personally doubt the concept fundamental could be, and the owner would not be in any case. (would be interesting to hear VPLP's take on that but I don't need to write a check for the necessary modelling to find that answer just for curiosity)

Is there anyone in "French world" with good experience with freestanding masts?

I prefer to avoid 'the designer and engineers have never ever done this before but they are good guys' if it is possible - going down that path you really need to build 3 boats before you get one that is dialed in. (you might get lucky first go, but the odds seem against it)

 

[Panoramix]

Is there anyone in "French world" with good experience with freestanding masts?

Not really as not that many were built, your best bet for a cruising boat would be Erik Lerouge : http://erik.lerouge.pagesperso-orange.fr/mono_15.htm - Scroll down...

Or Romaric Neyhousser who is working for Verdier and designed this :

the cat ketch concept is genuinely not competitive, they can probably let you figure that out without the expense of building a whole boat

Yes, would  not work now within the open 60 class or 6.50 class, but with foils, aero drag is becoming more important relatively and they might get to the point where  the free-standing rig makes sense as aerodynamic gain outweigh the extra mass!

 

[Cruisin Loser]

oh come on, it is not like we are running out of space here - give us like 3 of the most beautiful pictures you have pls

OK, but I'll add a couple, underbody and interior, to give a better sense of what she is.



Mast head spin on carbon, 3-spreader frac rig







Underbody.  8' fin, 6' carbon rudder.

 

[CapDave]

She does not have many multihull hours, but what she has leads her to believe she will not like the motion.

As a recent convert to cat from a life of mono - I would say at anchor the cat motion is better 70-80% of the time, worse 10-15%. The vulnerability is a short period chop close to the beam - which makes the cat skitter. Once the period stretches out and the monos are rolling, you don't even notice it in the cat. I hate rolling at anchor....

Underway it's low magnitude high frequency motion, no heeling no rolling. It's way way easier to do normal stuff like cooking and eating and showering and sleeping and repairs and sail handling and navigation and etc..You do have to hold on, it can get a little jerky, but I'd say it's better (less tiring, less dangerous) than mono like 90% of the time. You might lose your balance if you're not holding on, but you don't then get thrown across the cabin and break a rib while collecting a concussion. Downwind would be 100% better! My wife doesn't like heeling, so she gives it 100% upwind. Risk of going over the side I think is also substantially lower than a mono.

All this applies to bigger cats with high bridgedeck clearance - I really wouldn't go below 50' for comfortable liveaboard voyaging. YMMV. 

We have seen a few "fast" tris around the Eastern Caribbean - they look very uncomfortable at anchor in anything above a near-flat calm - very twitchy flopping from one ama to the other.

 

[IStream]

That varnish job is, literally, spectacular:

View attachment 443091

 

[Zonker]

So if one essentially wanted to design that boat again today, properly, are there obvious first choice people to hire as the designer and engineers? 

Well for mast design I'd suggest Chris Mitchell in New Zealand for any stayed rig. I'm not sure that he does freestanding rigs but I don't think it would be hard for him.  https://www.aes.net.nz/  I worked with him on some very big carbon rigs and I was impressed by his knowledge and engineering skills

I'd much rather hire a designer who does their own engineering in-house than somebody that farms it out to the big guys like Gurit (High Modulus). It's not that I think HM does a bad job; they are very good. I just like the idea of keeping it in-house because stuff gets lost in translation between 2 companies. 

Unfortunately I have never been impressed by Eric Sponberg's work. Who builds a race boat without a really detailed weight control program? But that could be on the client/builder not him.

I'm friends with Paul Bieker who is a really outside the quadrilateral thinker. I really like his skinny 40' long range cruiser. It's everything that the big Dashew boats are not. Light, simple, basic. It is not designed to cross oceans but does have long range. Perfect for higher latitude cruising under power.

 https://biekerboats.com/project/40ft-long-range-cruiser/

 

[Zonker]

That varnish job is, literally, spectacular:

View attachment 443091

Sure. If you have a full time varnisher on staff then it's easy.
 

I would echo CapDave's comments on cats vs. monos. Our first boat was a heavy 30' longish keel mono. The 40' cat was about the same weight fully loaded. 

The motion in the cat was way more comfortable, even upwind. Beating for 3 days into strong trades we were pointing higher than other 50ish mono cruising boats and I think more comfortable. We were keeping the speed around 7-7.5 knots to keep the motion a bit better (encounter the waves a bit slower) They eventually ducked behind an atoll to anchor and rest. I recalled a similar duration/waves on the 30' boat and it was night and day. On the passage on the mono we spend all our energy just hanging on. And it was a stiff boat.

After a long passage we always arrived well rested and ready to go out and find the ATM and then a restaurant. AFTER checking in of course. Never "Thank god we can sleep now"

Actually for motion 2m seas on the beam with short period were the worst. Up with one hull, then down, just as the other hull starts to lift. 

I think our 40' cat was fine for long term voyaging. I carried too many tools, scuba gear, books, my wife had too many shoes, and kid had 300+ books. It was well loaded down but the designed bridgedeck was high enough that true slams of the bridgedeck were a very rare event. Cats with low bridgedecks that I sailed on were NOT good.

 

[Diarmuid]

OK, but I'll add a couple, underbody and interior, to give a better sense of what she is.

View attachment 443091

Mast head spin on carbon, 3-spreader frac rig

View attachment 443092

View attachment 443094

View attachment 443095

Underbody.  8' fin, 6' carbon rudder.

View attachment 443096

View attachment 443097

Damn. Someone besides Nat got the Herreschoff white/wood balance right.

 

[Panope]

....I'm friends with Paul Bieker who is a really outside the quadrilateral thinker. I really like his skinny 40' long range cruiser. It's everything that the big Dashew boats are not. Light, simple, basic. It is not designed to cross oceans but does have long range. Perfect for higher latitude cruising under power.

 https://biekerboats.com/project/40ft-long-range-cruiser/

Than Bieker 40 is very cool.

Sort of a smaller version of George Buehler's IDLEWILD which had claimed (in 2005) the longest nonstop passage by a motor yacht.

I reckon both would rely heavily on the paravanes to control roll.  Anyone have experience with paravanes in huge seas?

http://georgebuehler.com/Idelwild.html

Steve

 

[DDW]

Than Bieker 40 is very cool.

Sort of a smaller version of George Buehler's IDLEWILD which had claimed (in 2005) the longest nonstop passage by a motor yacht.

I reckon both would rely heavily on the paravanes to control roll.  Anyone have experience with paravanes in huge seas?

http://georgebuehler.com/Idelwild.html

Steve

Except, Paul apparently has a better eye for aesthetics than Buehler.....

 

[Autonomous]

So, I am still curious from the crowd here - if you wanted to get an updated modernized version of this - who would you hire (designer and engineers)?

A version of Project Amazon that was built as intended, not compromised by the owner and builder would satisfy my curiosity. My interest in it is fast cruising.

Our very own BP is known to build a good all around boat. As far as structure I dunno.

My focus now is on small garage-shop kept boats, I have not kept up with the mid size designers. This is what I am considering building, note the freestanding masts, LOL.