Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[MFH125]

(4) How you get cruising boats to sail better in light air and swell - and I mean the non-obvious ways like a taller stick and a cleaner bottom.  There is a ton more light air than breaking waves, and in swell there can actually be quite a bit of fatigue damage done to a boat that can not sail and just rolls.

• Low drag running gear.  A feathering, or better yet a folding prop.  A retractable system would be best of all.
  
• In small boats, getting the boat to heel to leeward helps a lot by getting some shape into the sails.  That's hard to scale up to a 35 or 40 footer, though. Water ballast or other forms of moveable ballast might help here, as well as help the boat stand-up to a larger rig when the breeze is up.  Does anyone know what the various classes with moveable ballast do in the really light stuff?
  
• In flat conditions upwind, a very low area, high aspect ratio keel is probably ideal.  In a swell or left-over chop, the keel will invariably get stalled occasionally.  A keel with more area might be more effective at preventing leeway.
  
• high aspect ratio rig to get as much of the sail area up high as possible.
  
• A large crew: keeping a boat moving well in light air takes more attention and care than in a moderate breeze.
  

These are mostly 2nd order effects, though.  A big rig and minimal skin friction dominate the picture.  It's not so hard to build a light air monster, the problem is making that boat workable when the breeze is up.

A large sailplan is great in the light stuff, but to make it workable it needs to be able to "change gears" effectively.  So ironically, I think well thought out reefing systems and sail inventories matter a lot for making the "light air rig" workable the rest of the time. The growth in popularity of Code 0's and similar sails seems to have helped a lot with this.

 

[estarzinger]

•   It's not so hard to build a light air monster, the problem is making that boat workable when the breeze is up.
  

yes, that was exactly where I was at.

And I think perhaps that's the priority - first light air monster, second compromises and set-up necessary to make it more generally usable.  Which is really the opposite of how they (cruising boats) are often approached.

Do you end up narrow or wide beam for the light air monster? For the same displacement, which gives you less wetted surface - narrow I guess?  But wide probably handles the swell better, sails more stable?

 

[olaf hart]

I am inclined to take a different approach, sometimes shit just happens.

To my mind, trained on clinical and epidemiological data, nearly all the data sets here are so weak that it is advisable to prepare for the worst.

It’s like a screening test with a high rate of false positives or false negatives, worse than useless as it lulls people into a false sense of security and they don’t consider and prepare for a knockdown or rollover.

 

[estarzinger]

sometimes shit just happens.

l the data sets here are so weak 

 prepare for a knockdown or rollover.

In reverse order . . . 

I think pretty much anyone here with offshore experience would suggest you do what you can to prepare for knock down/rollover. There is the standard OSR sort of stuff - make sure the heavy things (engine, batteries, stove, etc) can hang upside down without breaking free, latches on sole and cupboards which can hold against the interior contents. There is the harder stuff - boats thrown on their sides by breaking waves often break the coach roof and often blow in windows - some of that can be beefed up effectively and some is just up to picking a well engineered boat.  And then there is the rig . . . probably going to come off in a violent roll, so thinking ahead of time about jerry rig is useful.  We did some things to our mast to pretty much insure we would have a decent size stump left to work with.

Yea the data is weak.  It is why experience and mentor's are so important in this activity.

I am torn in the Luck vs Skill debate.  Personally I generally lean toward skill being the rather more important of the two. There is ofc an element of luck and shit happens, but the skilled first minimize those moments and second will have war gamed plan C in their heads so that the cascade of shit is minimized.  And ofc there is sometimes really shit luck which just overwhelms even great skills, but my personal sense/opinion is that is really quite rare.  I appreciate this is debatable opinion and not 'fact'. There are a load of seamen who have an absolute ton of deep blue miles, often off season or the wrong way, who always deliver the boat, usually looking better than when it left, and just never have 'significant incidents'.  They either have have the very best luck every time (real tail of the distribution sort of outcomes), or the skills to pretty consistently manage their bad luck to acceptable outcomes.

 

[Bryanjb]

In reverse order . . . 

I think pretty much anyone here with offshore experience would suggest you do what you can to prepare for knock down/rollover. There is the standard OSR sort of stuff - make sure the heavy things (engine, batteries, stove, etc) can hang upside down without breaking free, latches on sole and cupboards which can hold against the interior contents. There is the harder stuff - boats thrown on their sides by breaking waves often break the coach roof and often blow in windows - some of that can be beefed up effectively and some is just up to picking a well engineered boat.  And then there is the rig . . . probably going to come off in a violent roll, so thinking ahead of time about jerry rig is useful.  We did some things to our mast to pretty much insure we would have a decent size stump left to work with.

Yea the data is weak.  It is why experience and mentor's are so important in this activity.

I am torn in the Luck vs Skill debate.  Personally I generally lean toward skill being the rather more important of the two. There is ofc an element of luck and shit happens, but the skilled first minimize those moments and second will have war gamed plan C in their heads so that the cascade of shit is minimized.  And ofc there is sometimes really shit luck which just overwhelms even great skills, but my personal sense/opinion is that is really quite rare.  I appreciate this is debatable opinion and not 'fact'. There are a load of seamen who have an absolute ton of deep blue miles, often off season or the wrong way, who always deliver the boat, usually looking better than when it left, and just never have 'significant incidents'.  They either have have the very best luck every time (6 sigma sort), or the skills to pretty consistently manage their bad luck to acceptable outcomes.

Waterline solves a lot of these issues.

 

[estarzinger]

Waterline solves a lot of these issues.

yes, it does - gives you both longer legs and (generally) greater capsize resistance.

It does bring with it some other compromises.

And I personally generally consider your size to be too big for me, but I appreciate and respect your ability to deal with it.

Even with size, I think we can agree that proper roll 'preparation' is good seamanship. And that better skill/knowledge/experience can help you avoid and minimize bad luck.

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

Waterline solves a lot of these issues.

Yeah sure - provided you've got really deep pockets to pay the yard bills while someone else does all the work on your boat.

As I'm currently working on mine, I can assure you that I really don't want to personally apply 2x or 4x the antifoul or overhaul much larger & heavier equipment. And paying someone else to do a worse job than I'll do myself really isn't going to happen.

FKT

 

[Bryanjb]

yes, it does - gives you both longer legs and (generally) greater capsize resistance.

It does bring with it some other compromises.

And I personally generally consider your size to be too big for me, but I appreciate and respect your ability to deal with it.

Even with size, I think we can agree that proper roll 'preparation' is good seamanship. And that better skill/knowledge/experience can help you avoid and minimize bad luck.

I agree completely with your comments, our boat is certainly not the right boat for everyone.  That's why they print wallpaper right, we're all different.

But that said, there is allot of old waterline that can be bought very reasonably, like a Swan 61 for $300k.  These are great values, great boats, that obviously have a higher carrying cost but maybe not as high as the depreciation of a new production type boat?  I'm comfortable saying an older Swan is a better built boat then a newer Hanse, the Hanse owner probably feels differently.  That's ok, we can agree to disagree.

At the end of the day we all sail what were comfortable with, a 61' boat feels the right size to us and it gives us the performance and comfort we want.  Would we go larger?  I would but I'm only half the equation.  Would we go smaller?  No way, we're fully in agreement there.

One of the best things about cruising is getting to meet and talk about these things with sailors with lots of time and experience.  It would have been great to meet you in a cruising ground somewhere.

 

[Bryanjb]

Yeah sure - provided you've got really deep pockets to pay the yard bills while someone else does all the work on your boat.

As I'm currently working on mine, I can assure you that I really don't want to personally apply 2x or 4x the antifoul or overhaul much larger & heavier equipment. And paying someone else to do a worse job than I'll do myself really isn't going to happen.

FKT

I sanded or bottom last year to prep for new bottom paint.  There little I don't do myself if I have the time.  

Is our cost higher then a smaller boat?  Yes but again you can change your own oil, service pumps, wax the hull or even repaint it if that is in your wheelhouse.

We've met many cruisers running older 60~80' yachts out cruising to think we are an anomaly.  I really liked Falcon 2000, lovely boat and couple.  

 

[Zonker]

There is ofc an element of luck and shit happens, but the skilled first minimize those moments and second will have war gamed plan C in their heads so that the cascade of shit is minimized.

This. Almost every day on a passage I was thinking what if we sprung a leak/lost a rudder (again)/lost a shroud etc etc. My wife didn't like it - suggested I was a bit pessimistic all the time when I role played these out loud. 

This actually helped my daughter; she had seen her parents troubleshoot lots of boat issues and did see plan A,B, and C fall through.

She went to her last 2 years of high school in Swaziland (southern Africa). For an extended school break she and friend decided to go from school to Victoria Falls, Zambia then Botswana and Namibia. When the bus from Botswana to Namibia got cancelled (Plan A), they planned to backtrack into Pretoria, SA, and catch a flight (Plan B ). The flight got cancelled so they took mini-buses across a good stretch of the Khalahari desert, hitchhiked with a truck driver (arrgh), and taxi to the border. This was referred to by her parents as (Plan WTF.)



I also think the skilled skippers are those people who really pay attention to the weather and try to minimize risk.

They manage fatigue as best they can, and have snacks and easy to prepare food handy.

They keep the boat moving in an uncomfortable manner for a few days, if it positions them for a shift in the weather or avoids a bad patch of low pressure. 

The less skilled ones are the ones that let the weather overtake them without taking any preventative action.

 

[MikeJohns]

The vessels in the graph seem to be a 'representative sample of sailing vessels' that Wolfson had studied.  They do not appear to all have been in the same storm or conditions. So it is not at all the sort of statistical risk assessment Mike suggests it is.  

And I might note that despite Mike's prior assurances that only full inversions were considered stability incidents ('by professionals') there are 4 categories of stability incidents defined and analyzed here, and none of them use the 'full inversion' criteria..

There's only really one category relevant to yachts (sailboats) in that plot and that's breaking wave induced capsize. The other categories are for barges and tall ships. Capsize is inversion, It's a complete loss of reserve stability resulting in the vessel inverting.

That's not Wolfston's current data set. Just an early version that's in the public domain and illustrative of the general process.

There are a lot of very similar plots that do state surviving vessels and casualties I might be wrong in this one but they are all similar enough. 

 

[MikeJohns]

I also think the skilled skippers are those people who really pay attention to the weather and try to minimize risk......

The less skilled ones are the ones that let the weather overtake them without taking any preventative action.

Operational area plays a large part in whether this is possible even in ships. A lot of areas are forecast on a coarse grid and accuracy is mediocre when the weather gets more severe. The Tasman Sea is a good example.

We get the lows from the S.O. They can be vast and moving at close to 50 knots and very hard to predict what shape they'll be after encountering Mountainous Terrain.

 

[olaf hart]

It’s also difficult to avoid bad weather when you have fronts crossing from the southern ocean every two to three days and limited roadstead anchorages on the northeastern Tasmanian coast and Bass Strait.

Not to mention the West Coast.

Round here you will regularly experience heavy weather regardless of how carefully you passage plan..

 

[estarzinger]

Round here you will regularly experience heavy weather regardless of how carefully you passage plan..

sure, but . . . 

 'heavy weather' is not the same as 'survival conditions'.  'heavy weather' is (generally, short of some exceptional rip current or shallow bar or such) quite manageable with some care and attention, and good practice.

and, yea, as you know, I have sailed round there (and around most places around the world noted for hard weather) - really your distances are not long - good planning (and no external schedule) generally gets you in a nice anchorage. Only times I was not was (1) intentional - some sail testing in storm bay and (2) on non-stop from perth to tasi when we had some breeze as I approached Port Davey.

I am no expert on tasi and all its ins and outs and potential pitfalls, but I did not see any thing suggesting I needed to pray to the gods for good luck and kiss my ass goodby

 I will tell you it is a known joke that everywhere a cruiser goes, the locals think their weather and sailing is 'the most dangerous'.  If you get a drink at a YC bar that is almost the first thing you are told everytime, everywhere.  I understand it because most places do have some specific hazard or other, and they have lost people . . . but it just seems like sailing to us.

 

[slug zitski]

Operational area plays a large part in whether this is possible even in ships. A lot of areas are forecast on a coarse grid and accuracy is mediocre when the weather gets more severe. The Tasman Sea is a good example.

We get the lows from the S.O. They can be vast and moving at close to 50 knots and very hard to predict what shape they'll be after encountering Mountainous Terrain.

In those regions it best to plan short legs that fit inside local weather windows 

all seamanship is about avoiding trouble 

 

[Autonomous]

 I will tell you it is a known joke that everywhere a cruiser goes, the locals think their weather and sailing is 'the most dangerous'.  If you get a drink at a YC bar that is almost the first thing you are told everytime, everywhere.  I understand it because most places do have some specific hazard or other, and they have lost people . . . but it just seems like sailing to us.

Understood. Up here in the Salish Sea we get in the summer what Bob Perry described as "Three knots, gusting to zero."

Brutal.

 

[estarzinger]

 "Three knots, gusting to zero."

Brutal.

Yea

It is fun when it is delivered with a bit of cheek or irony. In Kinsale (ireland) I was told 'we are happy the weather is so bad here because it keeps the Germans away'.

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

sure, but . . . 

 'heavy weather' is not the same as 'survival conditions'.  'heavy weather' is (generally, short of some exceptional rip current or shallow bar or such) quite manageable with some care and attention, and good practice.

and, yea, as you know, I have sailed round there (and around most places around the world noted for hard weather) - really your distances are not long - good planning (and no external schedule) generally gets you in a nice anchorage. Only times I was not was (1) intentional - some sail testing in storm bay and (2) on non-stop from perth to tasi when we had some breeze as I approached Port Davey.

I am no expert on tasi and all its ins and outs and potential pitfalls, but I did not see any thing suggesting I needed to pray to the gods for good luck and kiss my ass goodby

 I will tell you it is a known joke that everywhere a cruiser goes, the locals think their weather and sailing is 'the most dangerous'.  If you get a drink at a YC bar that is almost the first thing you are told everytime, everywhere.  I understand it because most places do have some specific hazard or other, and they have lost people . . . but it just seems like sailing to us.

Most cruising sailors rarely if ever venture out of the range between say 35 N & S. OK in the northern hemisphere they often start north of that and rapidly head to the warmer zones.

I know you've been in the high latitudes so this isn't aimed at you, it's just a general observation.

Not to mention staying in a secure anchorage when the weather is looking shit. That can mean 2-3 weeks if you go to Port Davey before you get out again, or hanging in Recerche Bay waiting to *get* to Port Davey.

I'm undoubtedly biased because we left port when the schedule said we were leaving port regardless of the weather and even on a decent sized ship, we got beaten up a lot. One notable example, it was usually around 3 days to get to Macquarie Island, this voyage it took nearly 6 because even in a 100m ship, we couldn't lay a decent course and we couldn't run at usual transit speed. Things were shit before we even got to the bottom of Bruny Island in Storm Bay.

Many years ago I spent a lot of time working on small ships, mainly fishing vessels, in the Arafura Sea and the Kimberley coast/NW Shelf area. We were there to work so went where we had to go according to the schedule. Even in the cyclone season, unless there was one, the winds and sea state was a lot more moderate than down here.

FKT

 

[estarzinger]

Most cruising sailors ......

That can mean 2-3 weeks if you go to Port Davey before you get out again

I hear you.  

I apologize if I sounded over-bearing or 'know-it-all'. 

I know you, among other places do get actual weather. I see it as something a skilled sailor just has to anticipate and plan for, rather than something to leave to 'luck'.  I do recognize that I am fortunate to have essentially endless time to wait and no schedule to keep except for cyclone seasons (essentially the opposites of a working seaman like yourself).  But if you are going to be a sailor in Tasi, or the Faroes or Patingona, quick changes and strong conditions is simply to be expected as a natural part of the sailing environment - part of the 'necessary skill package' is such places is being able to deal with that (anticipate and mitigate and endure).  Like coral reef navigation needs to be part of the skill package in some places and breaking river bar entrances in other places and huge currents in other places.

And yea on the 'most cruising sailor . . . ' point - probably true of most human endeavors - 95% dont challenge themselves all that much and dont develop much experience or skills, and generally that works fine for them. A few constantly operate over their head and dont learn from it and just rely on luck to get by, but mostly that gets terminated one way or another.  There is an awkward moment for people who have been in the 95% and then get ambitious and take off for more challenging experiences.  They can get in over their heads before their skills and experience level catches up . . . and in that window luck plays a real role.  I know our very first ocean crossing was definitely in that camp.

 

[SemiSalt]

If you watched Dylan Winter's adventures in a Centaur in the northern parts of Scotland,  you noticed how frequently he was windbound in port for three days at a time.