Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[Se7en]

Not to mention staying in a secure anchorage when the weather is looking shit. That can mean 2-3 weeks if you go to Port Davey before you get out again, or hanging in Recerche Bay waiting to *get* to Port Davey.

I wouldn't know, because in 4 attempts I've never made it to Port Davey. Spent a good chunk of time at Recherche Bay, and even ended up in Stanley once. Closest I got was being dropped on the beach at Cox's Bight and walking out.

Does not managing to make it some where point to good seamanship or cowardice?

But coming from Tas, I have been stunned by some of the barges that are considered sea worthy in SE Asia. One trip we were to be at sea for a couple of weeks in an old trawler style boat I wouldn't have crossed from Dover to Brunty on. But it was fine for that place and time.

 

[DDW]

A few constantly operate over their head and dont learn from it and just rely on luck to get by, but mostly that gets terminated one way or another.  There is an awkward moment for people who have been in the 95% and then get ambitious and take off for more challenging experiences.  They can get in over their heads before their skills and experience level catches up . . . and in that window luck plays a real role. 

It is probably a well known saying, I knew a glider instructor who said you start with two cups, one is Luck and it is full, the other is Experience and it is empty. Your job is to fill up the Experience cup before the Luck one goes dry.  

Nevertheless, I believe that luck heavily favors the prepared. 

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

Even with size, I think we can agree that proper roll 'preparation' is good seamanship. And that better skill/knowledge/experience can help you avoid and minimize bad luck.

John Vigor’s book, “The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat”, has a nice little sidebar in each chapter entitled “Think Inverted”, where he outlines roll ‘preparation’ - various considerations in case the boat goes past 90*.  It’s good for those who’ve never “gone down that road” in their minds.  Oriented towards smaller boats, likely, not 60’ gin palaces     (He also has what he calls “the Black Box theory” (link), a way to conceptualize luck/preparation/seamanship.)

 

[Elegua]

John Vigor’s book, “The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat”, has a nice little sidebar in each chapter entitled “Think Inverted”, where he outlines roll ‘preparation’ - various considerations in case the boat goes past 90*.  It’s good for those who’ve never “gone down that road” in their minds.  Oriented towards smaller boats, likely, not 60’ gin palaces     (He also has what he calls “the Black Box theory” (link), a way to conceptualize luck/preparation/seamanship.)

I think that's a very underappreciated book. 

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

 if you are going to be a sailor in Tasi, or the Faroes or Patingona, quick changes and strong conditions is simply to be expected as a natural part of the sailing environment - part of the 'necessary skill package' is such places is being able to deal with that (anticipate and mitigate and endure).  Like coral reef navigation needs to be part of the skill package in some places and breaking river bar entrances in other places and huge currents in other places.

And yea on the 'most cruising sailor . . . ' point - probably true of most human endeavors - 95% dont challenge themselves all that much and dont develop much experience or skills, and generally that works fine for them. A few constantly operate over their head and dont learn from it and just rely on luck to get by, but mostly that gets terminated one way or another.  There is an awkward moment for people who have been in the 95% and then get ambitious and take off for more challenging experiences.  They can get in over their heads before their skills and experience level catches up . . . and in that window luck plays a real role.  I know our very first ocean crossing was definitely in that camp.

Which is why many of us come here to learn from those with the experience and willingness and ability to pass it on - from a large variety of skill sets and backgrounds.

I’ve finally got my new, longer boom installed.  Need to measure for mainsheet tonight. Sail will arrive in a week or two maybe?  Meanwhile, I need to dive on the bottom to finish clearing off 6 months of growth, finish assembling my new anchor roller assembly (required b/c the new 20kg Rocna, purchased a year ago to replace the snagged/lost 20kg Bruce, chopped into the bow on the existing too-close-to-then-stem roller assembly.). Time to go sailing, whether short of long distance, is always in incredibly short supply - whether it’s lack of time b/c of work, or lack of time on a daily/weekly basis b/c of ongoing projects to do.  (The kid has just graduated high school so that’ll theoretically free up some time?)

So I come here to live —and learn— vicariously! . I still need to sort out the details of a decent —easy to set and douse— light air sail rig.  I’m trying to figure out what I can do in the time off I have this summer to push my learning boundaries.  The boat, never perfect, is now more on the side of desirable (vs. undesirable) at least, and improving daily...

 

[Panoramix]

John Vigor’s book, “The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat”, has a nice little sidebar in each chapter entitled “Think Inverted”, where he outlines roll ‘preparation’ - various considerations in case the boat goes past 90*.  It’s good for those who’ve never “gone down that road” in their minds.  Oriented towards smaller boats, likely, not 60’ gin palaces     (He also has what he calls “the Black Box theory” (link), a way to conceptualize luck/preparation/seamanship.)

I like this theory!

It is always the same boats who get to count horror stories. At the other end of the bar there is the quiet guy who modestly say "we found ourselves in the path of this bad thunderstorm which made the news, but we got lucky and managed to get the main in 2 minutes before the big gust hit us", he didn't get lucky, he just keep his boat ready all the time and even if one day he gets hit by the mother of all wave/gust, somehow he will manage to limp back home as crew and boat were super ready and knowledgeable!

 

[estarzinger]

If you watched Dylan Winter's adventures in a Centaur in the northern parts of Scotland,  you noticed how frequently he was windbound in port for three days at a time.

Patience is an underrated skill.  You need to be able to relax and not stress and wait just long enough and then go, if you wait too long hoping it will get even more perfect then often it cycles to worse and you have to start waiting all over.

 The boat, never perfect, is now more on the side of desirable (vs. undesirable) at least, and improving daily...

It has unfortunately become almost a meaningless business buzz phrase, but the mindset of continuous learning and continuous improvement is also an under appreciated skill.  I would much rather hire someone who knows a little less today but shows that learning/improvement capability in spades.

I'm not sure how 'teachable' either patience or learning is. Clearly there is room for most people to grow on both, but they also seem to require some personality traits which are reasonably deep seated.  Most of the successful couples I have known cruising complemented each other - like one was the gung-ho 'we go adventure today' and the other was the careful 'lets check everything twice'.  And you need both.  You need the first to ever leave the dock, and you need the second to not sink and die.

 

[MikeJohns]

...

Round here you will regularly experience heavy weather regardless of how carefully you passage plan..

There's one condition worth mentioning locally:

Bass strait proper is particularly treacherous when there's a  low in the Australian Bight blocked by a high over the mainland. 

The low is stationary and King Island acts as a double slot interference  mechanism. Two sets of waves out of phase with the same amplitude arrive in the strait around 120 degrees apart.

The wind is moderate, there's no gale warning and the low is forecast to get pushed south. Warm winds and clear skies give perfect wind conditions for leaving Melbourne  heading for Tas. But the sea state in localized areas is dangerous for small vessels. 

This isn't in the sailing guides, only local knowledge that you stay out of the strait with a stationary low to the west.

 

[olaf hart]

There's one condition worth mentioning locally:

Bass strait proper is particularly treacherous when there's a  low in the Australian Bight blocked by a high over the mainland. 

The low is stationary and King Island acts as a double slot interference  mechanism. Two sets of waves out of phase with the same amplitude arrive in the strait around 120 degrees apart.

The wind is moderate, there's no gale warning and the low is forecast to get pushed south. Warm winds and clear skies give perfect wind conditions for leaving Melbourne  heading for Tas. But the sea state in localized areas is dangerous for small vessels. 

This isn't in the sailing guides, only local knowledge that you stay out of the strait with a stationary low to the west.

Yep, I have a friend who did a 360 in his steel Nereia when he was hit by a rogue wave round there…

 I haven’t seen one when we have been round there,  but I always head east from Melbourne, never south.

 

[Bryanjb]

The most undesirable characteristic of an offshore yacht is a schedule.

 

[DDW]

^^ I did a like but that one deserves a Special Mention.

 

[Black Sox]

Yea

It is fun when it is delivered with a bit of cheek or irony. In Kinsale (ireland) I was told 'we are happy the weather is so bad here because it keeps the Germans away'.

The owner of a yacht charter business there told me that it wasn't unusual for him to collect his customers at Cork airport on a Friday, bring them to the boats moored at the Trident Hotel, come back on Monday to bring them back to the airport, only to find that they had never left Kinsale because of the plethora of fine dining and drinking establishments there.

Fine with him; no usage on the running gear of the boats. Happy customers, happy natives, all good.

 

[El Borracho]

The owner of a yacht charter business there told me that it wasn't unusual for him to collect his customers at Cork airport on a Friday, bring them to the boats moored at the Trident Hotel, come back on Monday to bring them back to the airport, only to find that they had never left Kinsale because of the plethora of fine dining and drinking establishments there.

Fine with him; no usage on the running gear of the boats. Happy customers, happy natives, all good.

Long ago my slip was at the end of a long dock. More than one Sunday I never made it all the way out to my slip. That is the social power of adult beverages.

 

[estarzinger]

 never left Kinsale

Kinsale was actually truly marvelous in the winter.

In the summer it was a tourist trap - a nice one, but still all fake.

In the winter 85% of it shut down, but what was left was really terrifically local - get to meet and dance and sing and drink with real people.

 

[Panoramix]

Kinsale was actually truly marvelous in the winter.

In the summer it was a tourist trap - a nice one, but still all fake.

In the winter 85% of it shut down, but what was left was really terrifically local - get to meet and dance and sing and drink with real people.

Never had the chance to know the winter version of Kinsale but the summer one was fine by my standards! Most coastal places are at least a bit fake as they tend to become too expensive for the locals. it is worse in Devon and Cornwall IMHO. I wouldn't mind touring Ireland during the winter though to take the time to meet the locals, once in Cork we stupidly broke an antenna while docking, went to the shipchandler to find a replacemtn, they hadn't one and a guy who was around offered to give us a lift to some industrial estate in the outskirts of the city to get one. He was right they had one and I think that it sums up Ireland. TBH, I really want one day to take my bike and pedal round Ireland, IME it is the best transport mean to actually socialise with the locals.

 

[kinardly]

Similar place on the Central California coast, Morro Bay, a kind of touristy town with hard working locals in the fishing and related industries, a few hours drive north of LA. Dead engine, dying wind, trying to navigate the channel entrance with a following swell breaking on the bar, the Harbor Patrol sent a boat out to tow us in-no charge. Tied up at the public dock and went looking for some electrician help the next morning. Someone noticed our boat and left a message on it asking if we needed help. That party told someone else and that someone else drove us into town, waited while we picked up some supplies, brought us back to find the first party had called his boat electrician and insisted the latter come out on a Saturday to look into our problem, which he did and fixed us up enough to set us off for home.

I remember thinking San Diego used to be like that fifty odd years ago but not now and not for a long time. Some nice watering holes there, too.

 

[estarzinger]

I remember thinking San Diego used to be like that fifty odd years ago

Newfoundland is like this today,  everywhere, even the capital town.

I once dinghied ashore with two jerry jugs looking for a harbor tap for some water.  A guy in a pickup asked what I was doing, I told him, he said jump in, and he drove me off for like 45 minutes to a historic spring, we filled the jugs, drove back and I bought two rounds of beers.

and elsewhere a guy came down and asked if we needed any transport, handed me the keys to a truck and said when you are done drop them under the door over there.

Human's do totally have the capacity to be completely nice and helpful and work together - but somehow many of our social structures seem to discourage this.

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

and elsewhere a guy came down and asked if we needed any transport, handed me the keys to a truck and said when you are done drop them under the door over there.

Happens a lot around here too. I've often lent my spare car to cruisers needing to go up town or do a bit of a tourist trip and another person I know lent their spare to visitors for 8 months. Ditto accommodation if available, or the standbys - laundry & hot showers.

FKT

 

[estarzinger]

Happens a lot around here too.

Our first trip to Aust (pre 9-11) was marvelous, everyone wonderful. And we put it on our 'must go back next time' list.

Our 2nd trip (well post 9-11) the everyday bloke was generally good but a little more standoffish. I could see how the local folks in Tasi might well be on the more helpful side of things, we just were in great shape and did not been much - but the big change was in your officials - they had turned into world class jack-booted militaristic jerks.  Including those in Hobart.  I try really really really hard to follow local laws and regulations to the letter, and I typically get on really well with officials because its pretty obvious I am trying to be respectful and law abiding, but we had just consistently horrible time with yours - perhaps only equaled all around the world with the seppo officials, which is definitely not good company to be in. It is not on our current 'must go back list'. And perhaps that's just fine with Australians.

I'm sure you are marvelously welcoming. And Tasi was a delightful place to explore. So, sorry for bringing the dark cloud, but it just was what it was.

 

[MikeJohns]

Our first trip to Aust (pre 9-11) was marvelous, everyone wonderful. And we put it on our 'must go back next time' list.

Our 2nd trip (well post 9-11) the everyday bloke was generally good but a little more standoffish. I could see how the local folks in Tasi might well be on the more helpful side of things, we just were in great shape and did not been much - but the big change was in your officials - they had turned into world class jack-booted militaristic jerks.  Including those in Hobart.  I try really really really hard to follow local laws and regulations to the letter, and I typically get on really well with officials because its pretty obvious I am trying to be respectful and law abiding, but we had just consistently horrible time with yours - perhaps only equaled all around the world with the seppo officials, which is definitely not good company to be in. It is not on our current 'must go back list'. And perhaps that's just fine with Australians.

Sign of the times. Legislation was necessary to really tighten up entry.  There's no discretion anymore. 

The rules aren't any worse than any other country if you understand them they are fine. Providing you follow the requirements ( not onerous) then entry is prompt and courteous.  There are no complaints about that from cruisers.

But where complications commonly arise is from not giving an exit visa enough leeway. Then and trying to get extra time on the end on the maximum stay for visa category. 

To extend a tourist visa in country here will require documents that if you don't have them you won't be able to furnish in time. That's not something the officials you deal with have any choice about anywhere in Australia, the computer that says no is in Canberra. The rules are set Federally to stop growing abuse of a previously lenient system.

But there are easy instant options to get around it like flying to NZ and back. Otherwise legal advice is necessary. (It costs less to go to NZ for a week than to get legal advice and appeal a decision).

We had advice from an immigration lawyer in the States 10 years ago, trying to extend a visa in the US Virgin Islands when they had given us the wrong category on entry !  In the end It was just a case of leaving the boat at anchor in St John and catching the ferry to BVI and back !  The lawyer was fantastic and advised us for free, that made up for the bored indifference of the officials.