Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[fufkin]

The nonsuch 30 had a two piece mast with sleeve...

The hull showed up on the beach with neither.

 

[LionessRacing]

As a reminder, a lot of people on this forum either own 40-year-old designs, or are looking to buy them. Not everyone can afford the latest and greatest design. In that regard, a lot of the info in the book is relevant.

The Swan 44 and Bermuda 40 (and others from that era) that inspired a multi-page spirited discussion here recently? Both of those designs were decades old when this book was published.

It may seem quaint to say it, but while the equipment may change, the ocean doesn't change, nor do the elements of seamanship.

I had the great good fortune to know and sail with many of those who provided input to this book. Their collective wisdom trumps the sniping from the peanut gallery here over how old-fashioned and outdated the book seems today.

If you don't understand where we came from, you are clueless about where we are going.

For what it's worth, the cover photo strongly resembles (and may well be a later model) Bermuda 40...

I have the book and the boat, and enjoyed both.

A few points for "Cruising" use not found on your basic Charter fleet optimized mass produced boat

• While the B-40 is neither large nor fast for her LOA, she is damn comfortable:
  
  
  
  with a slow pitch, roll and yaw motion in the cockpit, galley, head and 4 good sea berths plus 2 vee berths for the sporty set.
  
• The reduced acceleration reduces nausea, and fatigue and shock loading of gear and sails
  

[*]The divided rig allows for more sail options and smaller individual sails as well as redundancy for possible rig failures.

[*]At 4.25 ' water draft and < 60' air draft she can go in many more places at lower tides, and get off of the ocean as needed with fewer concerns of grounding and bridges for inland passages

[*]The long sloped external lead to shallow  flat bottomed keel with prop aperture and attached rudder

• 
  
  tracks better for most purposes except reversing under power,
  
• goes aground safely
  
• can be self rescued readily easily if aground.
  
• The full bilge turn hull will layover and recover without swamping if grounded on hard, with falling tide
  

[*]The wide side decks are good for working while heeled, and the narrow cabin provides ready handholds under way.

[*]Wide shroud base, while slightly  increasing tacking angle, affords a stronger less complex rig

[*]Bunking more than 6 people is a feature that is akin to having too many house guests, it can be done, but there's few times that I would want to be trapped with that many people on any practical sized vessel

 

[LionessRacing]

A few years ago , Off the coast of Maine , on a Swiss flagged 75 footer , we got stopped and the inspector made us take all the bagged sails out of the forepeak and unpack them on deck 

it was a bad day 

in general when sailing in US watered with a foreign Flag you will constantly be harassed at both anchor and when underway 

We entered Canada at Lunenberg in July of 2004, relatively vanilla appearance. Even called CBP in advance to notify.

Of course the ebb was stronger than expected, so we were running a bit late, and got a phone call back demanding to know where we were...

Arriving at the landing shortly thereafter the the three large men in matching jumpsuits separated the crew, interviewing us individually and proceeded to search the boat. I think they lost their ardor when I explained that they were welcome to look everywhere, but that the drawer in the forward cabin had both some ceremonial white sage, and some adult novelties, and that I could not recall if they had been sanitized after use.

 

[IStream]

We entered Canada at Lunenberg in July of 2004, relatively vanilla appearance. Even called CBP in advance to notify.

Of course the ebb was stronger than expected, so we were running a bit late, and got a phone call back demanding to know where we were...

Arriving at the landing shortly thereafter the the three large men in matching jumpsuits separated the crew, interviewing us individually and proceeded to search the boat. I think they lost their ardor when I explained that they were welcome to look everywhere, but that the drawer in the forward cabin had both some ceremonial white sage, and some adult novelties, and that I could not recall if they had been sanitized after use.

You just made me lose my ardor.

 

[LionessRacing]

You just made me lose my ardor.

Funny how that works...

 

[slug zitski]

We entered Canada at Lunenberg in July of 2004, relatively vanilla appearance. Even called CBP in advance to notify.

Of course the ebb was stronger than expected, so we were running a bit late, and got a phone call back demanding to know where we were...

Arriving at the landing shortly thereafter the the three large men in matching jumpsuits separated the crew, interviewing us individually and proceeded to search the boat. I think they lost their ardor when I explained that they were welcome to look everywhere, but that the drawer in the forward cabin had both some ceremonial white sage, and some adult novelties, and that I could not recall if they had been sanitized after use.

The US is a difficult place 

In Florida Inspectors went thru the galley and confiscated all spices that were not in store bought bottles 

The boat was in Portland Maine preparing to  sail to Nova Scotia 

The owners nephew , Swiss passport ,  20 something college student flew from London to Boston to join the boat in Maine 

he arrived with a one way ticket and was deported , denied entry,  at Boston

Poor bugger had to fly back to London , then fly to Nova Scotia to join the boat

 

[IStream]

I won't dispute that the US CBP can be difficult but in all fairness, very few countries will allow you to enter with only a one-way ticket. It's considered a failure of the "Proof of sufficient financial means" test. Since turnabout is fair play, here are the current requirements for Switzerland, which include a warning that the individual border guard you deal with has absolute discretion to judge your case:


What Documents do Americans Need to Enter the Schengen Area?


Despite of the fact that US citizens do not need to obtain an EU visa prior to their travel to Schengen, they still need to have some documents with them in order to be allowed to enter Europe visa free zone.

When American travelers show up at the border to enter the Schengen Zone, they will be asked by border guard to present the following documents:

• A US Passport. It must not be older than 10 years and it should be valid for at least three more months beyond their intended date of departure from the Schengen Area.
  
• Evidence on their purpose of entry. Documents that show why the US citizen is traveling to the Schengen Area.
  
• Proof of sufficient financial means. Documents which prove that the US traveler has the financial means to support themselves during their whole stay in Europe.
  

Please keep in mind that the border guard has the final say whether a traveler should be permitted to enter the Schengen Zone or not. If you are rejected from entering any of the EU member states, then you will have to go back to the United States and apply for a regular Schengen Visa.

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

That's ok - it is probably only of interest to Jud and he seems willing to read long sections, even of blue font.

Nope, I'm interested too - blue font and all.

Was talking to someone else who's hauled out ATM working on a refit who've spent extensive time in Patagonia. We're inviting them round for a meal shortly now my boat is back in the water with new hard dodger, powered anchor winch, diesel heater and redesigned/rebuilt shaft seals & thrust bearings.

The other boat owner built hit as well (metal boat lifting keel) so he knew exactly what I meant when I cursed the idiotic original builder for utterly moronic design decisions that in retrospect made no sense at all.

FKT

 

[plenamar]

As a reminder, a lot of people on this forum either own 40-year-old designs, or are looking to buy them. Not everyone can afford the latest and greatest design. In that regard, a lot of the info in the book is relevant.

The Swan 44 and Bermuda 40 (and others from that era) that inspired a multi-page spirited discussion here recently? Both of those designs were decades old when this book was published.

It may seem quaint to say it, but while the equipment may change, the ocean doesn't change, nor do the elements of seamanship.

I had the great good fortune to know and sail with many of those who provided input to this book. Their collective wisdom trumps the sniping from the peanut gallery here over how old-fashioned and outdated the book seems today.

If you don't understand where we came from, you are clueless about where we are going.

These are excellent points

 

[DDW]

Back in the 80s a guy set out to cross the Atlantic in his Nonsuch 30. 

Somewhere out there he had to be rescued. I’m pretty sure he lost his rig...though that could have happened after the rescue...

It floated onto  beach somewhere in the Caribbean basin in Central or South America.

The details are foggy but I think the owner wanted to go reclaim the salvage off the fisherman who found it but eventually scrapped that plan.

Bottom line was the boat floated a long long way on its own after losing the rig.

Actually that boat was abandon by the inexperienced single handed crew with rig intact, though the sail track and sail were damaged. He wrote a book about it (which I have). The sail track on the Nonsuch 30 was specified as though it were a 30' boat, but of course it has a 50' sized main. Anyway, the boat was recovered several months later, rig was out and other things missing suggesting it had been stripped, hull was refitted and is still sailing. Another Nonsuch 30 went across the Atlantic and then was being delivered on the return by an inexperienced single hander. Again sail track damage and abandon, again recovered after an extended time and that boat is still sailing. The owner wrote a book about that one (which I have). A 3rd Nonsuch (33) racing to Bermuda encountered very heavy weather, reefed sail bunt filled with water* damaging sail track making boat hard to manage, crew had the opportunity to get off and did. That boat was left with hatches open and was never seen again. One of the crew described the event to me personally. Moral might be refit your sail track with a properly sized one, especially on a UNA rig where it is the only thing going.

The Nonsuch was not intended to be an ocean cruiser and though perhaps capable you would want to do preparations for such work remembering that it was built and equipped for coastal work. 

*This is a problem with a wishbone rig, as the reefs get deeper there is a larger and larger uncontrolled bunt of sail in the lazyjacks. The wishbone slopes up at a steep angle so each successive reefed clew is higher above the original foot. One of the reasons my boat has a more or less conventional boom. 

 

[shaggybaxter]

A free standing mast will tear a big hole in the cabin top when it fails 

bad idea 

aft watertight bulkheads are indeed a good idea 

bow  waterproof crash bulkheads are a good idea

A water proof engine room and battery storage are good ideas 

difficult for production boats to deploy good ideas   

A free standing mast will tear a big hole in the cabin top when it fails 

bad idea 

Geez Slug, that's a helluva broad generalization. That like saying all deck stepped masts are bad.   

-aft watertight bulkheads are indeed a good idea. 

-bow  waterproof crash bulkheads are a good idea

-A water proof engine room and battery storage are good ideas 

- difficult for production boats to deploy good ideas   

? My boat was a 'production' boat and it had all of these as standard. 

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

A free standing mast will tear a big hole in the cabin top when it fails 

bad idea 

Geez Slug, that's a helluva broad generalization. That like saying all deck stepped masts are bad.   

-aft watertight bulkheads are indeed a good idea. 

-bow  waterproof crash bulkheads are a good idea

-A water proof engine room and battery storage are good ideas 

- difficult for production boats to deploy good ideas   

? My boat was a 'production' boat and it had all of these as standard. 

Mine is a one-off custom build and has none of those. I'm not losing any sleep over it either.

FKT

 

[shaggybaxter]

Mine is a one-off custom build and has none of those. I'm not losing any sleep over it either.

FKT

The joys of a steelie? Don't need no stinking additional engineering when the hull is near impenetrable.

Mind you, a rudder post open to the interior sans a rudder could still make for a bad day.    

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

The joys of a steelie? Don't need no stinking additional engineering when the hull is near impenetrable.

Mind you, a rudder post sans a rudder could still make for a bad day.    

Yeah I thought of that which is why the rudder shaft sleeve is Sched 80 pipe with a 316 liner and extends 450mm above the DWL. And is very well braced.

Full length shoal draft keel so there's a substantial heel bearing on the rudder as well.

I don't lose any sleep over losing the rudder either.

OTOH salt water in my bilges gives me nightmares about rust so there's always something to worry about. Just finished pulling & replacing all the prop shaft lip seals and thrust bearing pack because the outer seal was leaking a bit and water was being screwed past the inboard seal when the shaft was rotating. Bad design on my part.

Having just used a hole saw to drill a bunch of 50mm holes through the floors (6mm thick steel) to run another bunch of cables (2 x 35mm^2, 2 x 25mm^2, 240V AC and Ethernet), having to drill through 'watertight' bulkheads and then fit big cable glands - well I'm glad I didn't have to.

FKT

 

[shaggybaxter]

Yeah I thought of that which is why the rudder shaft sleeve is Sched 80 pipe with a 316 liner and extends 450mm above the DWL. And is very well braced.

Full length shoal draft keel so there's a substantial heel bearing on the rudder as well.

I don't lose any sleep over losing the rudder either.

OTOH salt water in my bilges gives me nightmares about rust so there's always something to worry about. Just finished pulling & replacing all the prop shaft lip seals and thrust bearing pack because the outer seal was leaking a bit and water was being screwed past the inboard seal when the shaft was rotating. Bad design on my part.

Having just used a hole saw to drill a bunch of 50mm holes through the floors (6mm thick steel) to run another bunch of cables (2 x 35mm^2, 2 x 25mm^2, 240V AC and Ethernet), having to drill through 'watertight' bulkheads and then fit big cable glands - well I'm glad I didn't have to.

FKT

I'm doing an Ethernet LAN for a commercial boat that uses a composite cable with fibre optics for the Ethernet with copper conductors for the ELV power. Kinda neat pulling a single cable, but you need fibre interfaces on your edge devices which sadly isn't that common yet.

POE was a game changer for Ethernet, but it hasn't really taken off in the non traditional spaces surprisingly. It should, as a reliable data and power solution on a single copper cable run, it has a lot going for it.  

 

[Fah Kiew Tu]

POE was a game changer for Ethernet, but it hasn't really taken off in the non traditional spaces surprisingly. It should, as a reliable data and power solution on a single copper cable run, it has a lot going for it. 

Agree. I've got a couple of Freetronics Arduino's with built-in Ethernet on the work bench ATM, they can be powered by POE and I'll probably upgrade the hub to suit. Maybe the Raspberry Pi's too.

Funnily enough the current hub seems not to have enough ports, can't imagine how that could have happened.

Marine electronics pisses me off, the issues were solved decades ago, we had a fully integrated Ethernet system running on ship back in 1997. Yet NMEA2000 is still 'state of the art'. Barf.

FKT

 

[Cruisin Loser]

I've never had a problem of any kind clearing in to Canada or the US. Except for a few truly jaded souls whose boredom I've interrupted near Metaline Falls, WA, my experience everywhere has been with unfailingly polite people.

Same with coast Guard boardings. Sometimes I've thought that they just wanted to see the boat.

One return from Bermuda we had left Bda with 5 and arrived USA with 10 in our ship's company. At the Marion town dock I started to apologize for the state of the boat and was told "I need 10 faces and 10 passports and we're done in 5 minutes. I don't care if your bilge is filled with drugs and cash, you get a free pass on this one."

Of course, my wife sometimes gets a little upset at my ability to turn getting pulled over at a high rate of speed into a new friendship and a warning. 

 

[Diarmuid]

Honestly were do you get this stuff?

Often wrong, always certain. That's our Zitsky.

 

[Mid]

Funny how the world works sometimes.  

any more to this story you'd like to share with the class ? 

 

[IStream]

I'm doing an Ethernet LAN for a commercial boat that uses a composite cable with fibre optics for the Ethernet with copper conductors for the ELV power. Kinda neat pulling a single cable, but you need fibre interfaces on your edge devices which sadly isn't that common yet.

POE was a game changer for Ethernet, but it hasn't really taken off in the non traditional spaces surprisingly. It should, as a reliable data and power solution on a single copper cable run, it has a lot going for it.  

I put an 8 port POE Ubiquiti ToughSwitch on my boat about 8 years ago and replaced its AC power supply with a 12V-48V boost converter that fits neatly inside the case. It can supply 150W across all 8 ports and it works a treat.

Unfortunately, POE standards have changed so much in the intervening years that its fixed 24/48V passive POE now requires a $20 adapter for any modern POE gear I want to connect to it.