Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[Blue Crab]

I conclude from this thread so far that the most desirable characteristic is LOA. And lots of it. Lacking that, the need is for sea room. 

I've read as much as anyone and the one thing that sticks with me wasn't from Hiscock or Blyth but our own E Starzinger who commented he and Beth had circumnavigated the globe without encountering over 35kts of wind. Regardless of boat or skipper competence, no pre-electronics sailor can make a statement like that. Ergo, the most desirable thing is a modern nav/weather setup.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

The most desirable characteristic is that the crew trusts the boat and the most undesirable characteristic is that they don't trust the boat.

How many "rescues" have you seen where the crew is getting off a boat with an intact rig, floating on her lines, and in moderate weather What it came down to was they were scared and wanted to go home.

OTOH a buddy was on a cruise and the cruise ship stopped when they encountered a Hunter beat to hell with no rig. The skipper didn't want to be rescued, he wanted some food, water, and diesel. The cruise ship gave him some supplies and off he went, he was getting her home no matter what. So shitty boat + big balls beat the hell out of scared people on the best boat ever made

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

I conclude from this thread so far that the most desirable characteristic is LOA. And lots of it. Lacking that, the need is for sea room. 

I've read as much as anyone and the one thing that sticks with me wasn't from Hiscock or Blyth but our own E Starzinger who commented he and Beth had circumnavigated the globe without encountering over 35kts of wind. Regardless of boat or skipper competence, no pre-electronics sailor can make a statement like that. Ergo, the most desirable thing is a modern nav/weather setup.

On those two notes —LOA and meteorology— here’s Frank Blair, who sailed his big wooden schooner, Maggie B., around via the Southern Ocean.  (I’m afraid that his hull/boat preference may upset some folks, so be forewarned  )


—Meteorology is pretty good these days. Excellent, in fact. You can get good advice anytime, anywhere. If you are paying attention, it is much, much harder to get into weather trouble than it used to be. 



—In my opinion, a full-keel schooner is a much safer boat offshore than a sloop, yawl or ketch. You want flexibility and balance. You want directional stability. You want to be able to pile on lots of sail in light air, and reef down safely when it blows hard. If it becomes a big blow, you want to bring your main down to the third or fourth reef, furl up the foresail, and drive off with half a jib. That is easy to do in a schooner, very tough in a sloop. But the real killer is broaching, losing directional control in big seas and big wind. On my schooner, you can reef down the main, bring the center of pressure forward, and use its long keel for directional stability. Modern sloops with skinny keels and little rudders might be faster racing around buoys but can be uncontrollable in big water. (from https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/how-to/13-lessons-learned-in-southern-ocean/)

 

[estarzinger]

 What other books/ideas out there, technical-wise, 

An interesting 'post internet' question  :huh:

Dashew/Leonard/Etc. seem to have been the last generation interesting in doing the work required to write a technical how to book. And 'best practices' have in fact moved on since that generation.

The sailing Vblogs seem to be mostly T&A travelblogs - and whenever they (at least the few leaders) do try to do something technical the medium just demonstrates how unexpert they in fact are.

There are tiny niche spots of development but it is so disaggregated they dont help unless you already know what you are looking for.

There is an unmet need here, but the current 'knowledge culture' does not seem to have a way to fill it.  It's a bit odd really.

 Frank Blair, ...Maggie B.,

Ah, Frank and Maggie . . .a really interesting character . . . .reminded me a bit of DDW.  We had some nice sipping times in Maggie's saloon. 

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

An interesting 'post internet' question  :huh:

Dashew/Leonard/Etc. seem to have been the last generation interesting in doing the work required to write a technical how to book. And 'best practices' have in fact moved on since that generation.

The sailing Vblogs seem to be mostly T&A travelblogs - and whenever they (at least the few leaders) do try to do something technical the medium just demonstrates how unexpert they in fact are.

There are tiny niche spots of development but it is so disaggregated they dont help unless you already know what you are looking for.

There is an unmet need here, but the current 'knowledge culture' does not seem to have a way to fill it.  It's a bit odd really.

“And best practices have in fact moved on since that generation”

Evans, do you mean that “fashions” (so to speak) have changed?  What was regarded as good “then” (not terribly long ago) isn’t so much regarded as such now?  (Which it seems that “Desirable and Undesirable” is all about, a reaction to changes in best practices - which I had no idea - and had no idea people were so partisan about, almost to the point of being —oh, never mind...)

In short, I don’t see how Beth’s book (example) is “dated” per se.  What do you mean best practices have moved on? The fundamentals haven’t really changed, no?

 

[estarzinger]

Evans, do you mean that “fashions” (so to speak) have changed?  

..........

 The fundamentals haven’t changed.

Fundamentals rarely change - the sea is the same.

But the tools and techniques and our knowledge do develop.

Just for 3 quite random instances . . . Drag devices and offshore weather routing and sleep management are 'fundamental's' been around in one form or another since the Greeks . . but the balance of knowledge around each has continually developed and is no longer well/totally captured in that prior generation of books.

Slightly on a tangent from that thought - I really wish someone would take the effort to capture Webb C's seamanship wisdom.  He is 'my generation' - but personally has always been more interested in poetry than how-to - he has developed a really extraordinary knowledge/experience base - it is a bit niche - but still super special and valuable - be a bit sad to just let it disappear. 

 

[Cruisin Loser]

This has turned into Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Posters.

It does actually provide a pretty good guide to whom you might want to invite aboard for a drink. 

 

[TwoLegged]

Dashew/Leonard/Etc. seem to have been the last generation interesting in doing the work required to write a technical how to book. And 'best practices' have in fact moved on since that generation.

A few thoughts here:

1. I doubt that the bikini-driven video market is in competition with the howto book.  Mostly different audiences
   
2. There's not much money in books anymore.  If anyone did write a 2020s offshore-howto book, would it find a publisher?
   
3. How useful is a book these days?  Some of the technology is still changing fast, e.g. electronics, hull design, and the emergence of still-very-immature electric propulsion.
   
4. Internet access has improved so much that peer-to-peer discussion among active cruisers is now a viable option.  The quality of the info on forums is variable, but peer-to-peer communication reduces demand for the authoritative tome
   

 

[El Borracho]

I conclude from this thread so far that the most desirable characteristic is LOA. And lots of it. Lacking that, the need is for sea room. 

I've read as much as anyone and the one thing that sticks with me wasn't from Hiscock or Blyth but our own E Starzinger who commented he and Beth had circumnavigated the globe without encountering over 35kts of wind. Regardless of boat or skipper competence, no pre-electronics sailor can make a statement like that. Ergo, the most desirable thing is a modern nav/weather setup.

I would suggest that LWL is better than LOA.

As for circumnavigating without ever encountering a gale. How boring is that? Optimal cruiser routing, weather windows, waiting. Some friends did that. Seems more akin to tourism than sailing. Nothing wrong with that, but consider that airlines and hotels provide a similar service. "We went around the world and never felt a thing." A literal quote.

Reading these oldtimer books is like reading a book about old computers. Weighing the virtues of a Teletype over a CRT. 8" floppies vs. 3 1/2" or a deck of Hollerith cards. The sailing world has thankfully moved on. As much to be learned from these old designers as from a Ford auto engineer from 1965. Before you jump down my throat here...I sail an almost-antique yacht, so...

 

[Steam Flyer]

I have heaved to (how awkward is that phrase?) on every boat I have owned, from a 16' Wayfarer to the current C&C 35. They will all do it, but sometimes you have to fiddle a bit...

Hove to.

Hah! Amateurs

I have actually hove three.

FB- Doug

 

[Corryvreckan]

A few thoughts here:

1. I doubt that the bikini-driven video market is in competition with the howto book.  Mostly different audiences
   
2. There's not much money in books anymore.  If anyone did write a 2020s offshore-howto book, would it find a publisher?
   
3. How useful is a book these days?  Some of the technology is still changing fast, e.g. electronics, hull design, and the emergence of still-very-immature electric propulsion.
   
4. Internet access has improved so much that peer-to-peer discussion among active cruisers is now a viable option.  The quality of the info on forums is variable, but peer-to-peer communication reduces demand for the authoritative tome
   

Peer to peer can be about as informative as watching a pissing contest, unless you really know what questions to ask, and which answers to believe.  The advantage of books (at least in the days before self-publishing) is that a lot of the chaff was filtered out and the rest was organized into a cohesive whole.

I suspect that acquiring any meaningful amount of knowledge (in any field) takes a longer attention span than the average thread or blog post.  What peer to peer is great for is answering "how do I apply this principle to suchandsuch specific situation?"

 

[Elegua]

It does actually provide a pretty good guide to whom you might want to invite aboard for a drink. 

Or spend time with on passage. 

 

[El Borracho]

It does actually provide a pretty good guide to whom you might want to invite aboard for a drink. 

I draw the line at sailors who wax romantically about the fine points of being hove-to and the comparative qualities of anchors.

 

[Al Paca]

I read it years ago, and it's an interesting read, if only for historical perspective. It has a place in any reasonable library alongside the other good books in the genre, but doesn't deserve pride of place.

Nice nautical library. But I don’t see the Holy Grail of sailing books. Royce’s Sailing illustrated.  I’ll assume it’s on the boat for quick reference while underway. 

 

[SemiSalt]

On those two notes —LOA and meteorology— here’s Frank Blair, who sailed his big wooden schooner, Maggie B., around via the Southern Ocean.  (I’m afraid that his hull/boat preference may upset some folks, so be forewarned  )


—Meteorology is pretty good these days. Excellent, in fact. You can get good advice anytime, anywhere. If you are paying attention, it is much, much harder to get into weather trouble than it used to be. 



—In my opinion, a full-keel schooner is a much safer boat offshore than a sloop, yawl or ketch. You want flexibility and balance. You want directional stability. You want to be able to pile on lots of sail in light air, and reef down safely when it blows hard. If it becomes a big blow, you want to bring your main down to the third or fourth reef, furl up the foresail, and drive off with half a jib. That is easy to do in a schooner, very tough in a sloop. But the real killer is broaching, losing directional control in big seas and big wind. On my schooner, you can reef down the main, bring the center of pressure forward, and use its long keel for directional stability. Modern sloops with skinny keels and little rudders might be faster racing around buoys but can be uncontrollable in big water. (from https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/how-to/13-lessons-learned-in-southern-ocean/)


View attachment 438719

In the days when the schooner rig was the popular rig for coastwise shipping, one of the big reasons was that a big boat could be handled by a small crew. So maybe, it's a good choice for a single hander. OTOH, they spent a lot of time sailing pretty slow, and spent time at anchor waiting for strong headwinds to subside. 

John Welsford, the small boat designer from New Zealand,  once pointed out that in his part of the world, ketches were preferred because they had more windward work, and the ketches were better upwind.

 

[Steam Flyer]

A few thoughts here:

1. I doubt that the bikini-driven video market is in competition with the howto book.  Mostly different audiences
   
2. There's not much money in books anymore.  If anyone did write a 2020s offshore-howto book, would it find a publisher?
   
3. How useful is a book these days?  Some of the technology is still changing fast, e.g. electronics, hull design, and the emergence of still-very-immature electric propulsion.
   
4. Internet access has improved so much that peer-to-peer discussion among active cruisers is now a viable option.  The quality of the info on forums is variable, but peer-to-peer communication reduces demand for the authoritative tome
   

Agreed, but books are both a good pastime and repository for all that data... some of it out dated sure, but how expensive and time-consuming would it be to learn it all over again?

The sea hasn't changed much. We have certainly improved materials and designs and techniques, but it's a swirling madhouse of stuff that only works with certain combinations. The sailors who eagerly proselytize one particular type of boat, one particular type of gear, one particular type of coping with X (insert problem), often don't tell you about all the slight variations that result in failure, or the difficulties in everything else that their chosen type/class of boat imposes. The fairest source of info will lay out the compromises... but also not be as convincing because human nature demands enthusiasm & salesmanship.

FWIW I think there's a lot of value in Rousmaniere's and Marchaj's books. The salemanship is minor, the worst thing is that they both expend a lot of time & energy condemning a type of boat that has nearly vanished anyway. But they also lay out the design and configuration compromises.

FB- Doug

 

[TwoLegged]

Peer to peer can be about as informative as watching a pissing contest, unless you really know what questions to ask, and which answers to believe.  The advantage of books (at least in the days before self-publishing) is that a lot of the chaff was filtered out and the rest was organized into a cohesive whole.

All true.  But sailing books never had huge sales, and if a significant proportion of the potential market has turned to social media, then the shrinking makes the book less viable.  The wisdom (or otherwise) of that choice doesn't alter the bottom line.

 

[Diarmuid]

Hove to.

Strangely, Ish's "heaved to" is the correct verb form (past participle); "hove to" is the adjectival condition.  Having heaved to, the boat is now hove to.

English is weird. :lol:

 

[TwoLegged]

The sea hasn't changed much. We have certainly improved materials and designs and techniques, but it's a swirling madhouse of stuff that only works with certain combinations.

Yes,the sea is harsh ... but I think we are a long way from finding the full set of combinations which work.  Some combinations which had previously been ruled out come back into play as technologies improve.  One example is big sloops, tamed by powered furling systems and powered sheets ... until gear failure turns the rig into a killer.

 

[estarzinger]

that peer-to-peer discussion among active cruisers is now a viable option. 

Peer to peer has its advantages (part of the small niche approach I mentioned above) and is fun and social in any case , but it is not a great way to determine 'best practices' as #1 it is by its nature more anecdotal, #2 it is hard to know who in fact knows what they are talking about - our sport seems to particularly have a lot of people who think they are expert with expert experience when in fact they dont (eg like once around in the tropics does not make you an expert), and #3 excellent analytical skills are reasonably rare and are in fact required to successfully untangle best practices in a multi-faceted activity such as ours