Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[TwoLegged]

Of course, having the answers and applying the answers are two different things. Long ago Nautor/Swan funded a university experiment instrumenting a boat and published the results. Among the results were that rudder loads and keel loads were higher than everyone had assumed. Since then countless rudders and keels have failed as neither ABYC or ABS recommendations changed. In that context, collecting data and generating conclusions is a fool's errand, since the work will be ignored. 

With a few honourable exceptions, standards keel attachment on modern sailboats are grim.  But it seems that most buyers place little priority on a well-engineered keel.

As to collecting lots of data, I fear that it will be of limited use.  The sensors will be unlikely to record the sail area and how it is sheeted, or the load weight on the boat and its distribution, which can be significant variables on a cruising boat.  They can record wind fairly well, but can at best get some proxy measurements for sea state. 

So it seem to me that it would be hard to compare data from different boats.

 

[Bryanjb]

To the OP, maybe just read the book.  This thread is going nowhere.

 

[Zonker]

Beamy light displacement Wedge type hulls are best as limited coastal cruisers.  The Pogo 12.5 is typical of this.

I'm sure you recognize that there is no "best hull shape" for offshore cruising. It might be more uncomfortable beating upwind in 4m seas than a skinny CCA hull, but I bet you'd realize that if you bought a Pogo.

MSI limits can be next to impossible to achieve in some combinations of sea state and heading without a resonabale displacement to waterplane area.

MSI limits (if you're talking about NATO limits or something similar) are impossible to achieve in ANY small boat in a F8 if you're still sailing upwind. 

I conclude from this thread so far that the most desirable characteristic is LOA. And lots of it. Lacking that, the need is for sea room

Yep, (LWL is a better predictor of "actual" size) and it's also a good predictor of capsize. Lots of the Global Race with very "seaworthy" old school type keels, narrow beams 32-36' capsized. Bigger 45' Beneteau's probably would not have.

The size of a breaking wave required to capsize a typical sailboat is = beam of the vessel. That's the breaking part of the wave, not the total wave height. So if you have  a 10' beam, a 25' wave with the top 10' breaking is enough to flip you if it catches you beam on.

As for circumnavigating without ever encountering a gale. How boring is that? Optimal cruiser routing, weather windows, waiting. Some friends did that. Seems more akin to tourism than sailing. Nothing wrong with that, but consider that airlines and hotels provide a similar service. "We went around the world and never felt a thing." A literal quote.

Or because you're sailing your home with all your possession, your family and your pet, and ocean sailing can be risky 1000's of miles from the nearest help, why seek out trouble? Tearing sails, breaking rigging fittings, or a dismasting would be very un-fun and expensive. 

I spent lots of time studying weather trying to avoid bad weather. It's more comfortable to avoid gales. Travel in lots of foreign countries is very interesting and challenging enough without getting hammered. If you're going for a daysail do you say "shit it's 15 knots forget it; I'll wait for a proper gale"

It's similar advice to  "Wow you climbed Mt. Everest and never once had to suffer 100 mile winds when the jet stream moved and and an avalanche didn't kill your companions? How boring"

Fundamentals rarely change - the sea is the same.

Yes, but I'd argue the weather is NOT the same. My wife did a story where she talked to a bunch of meteorologists including Bob McDavitt. Every single one of them said weather patterns are not the same as they were used to. This is guys with decades and decades of experience looking at the same bit of ocean. Generally the take away was the shoulder seasons were getting longer and more unpredictable.

Hurricane/cyclone seasons were a bit longer they thought but not enough data yet.

The risks of adverse weather as you try to reach the tropics or leave temperate regions is probably higher than 20 years ago (think the NZ-Tonga passage or Norfolk to USVI in late fall). I'm happy we went when we did. In 10 or 15 years you'll still be able to sail oceans but the weather might be less predictable and less kind

 

[Kris Cringle]

No, I read quite a bit of it and decided that I didn't need it.

You have Sail Power by Wallace Ross. That book changed how I trim sails and ultimately how I love to sail. I once took a North Sails Gofast weekend course. It was a crashing bore. Based nearly word for word on Sail Power, I already knew that by heart. 
 

 

[estarzinger]

Yes, but I'd argue the weather is NOT the same. 

almost certainly true if your time horizon is 'shortish' like since 1900.  I agree the shoulders of the cyclone seasons seem to have moved.

I dont have enough knowledge about the past say 5000 years to know if our 100 year system variability is unusual or not. And that starts to move into a PA discussion in any case.

 

[Ishmael]

You have Sail Power by Wallace Ross. That book changed how I trim sails and ultimately how I love to sail. I once took a North Sails Gofast weekend course. It was a crashing bore. Based nearly word for word on Sail Power, I already knew that by heart. 
 

Tom Whidden's The Art and Science of Sails is worth reading and adds some modern elements that Ross didn't have at the time.

 

[Elegua]

Tom Whidden's The Art and Science of Sails is worth reading and adds some modern elements that Ross didn't have at the time.

I have that. It's has some good information but does read a bit like a North commercial in places.  The North U. Cruising & Seamanship textbook has the cliffnotes version. 

 

[DDW]

As to collecting lots of data, I fear that it will be of limited use.  The sensors will be unlikely to record the sail area and how it is sheeted, or the load weight on the boat and its distribution, which can be significant variables on a cruising boat.  They can record wind fairly well, but can at best get some proxy measurements for sea state. 

So it seem to me that it would be hard to compare data from different boats.

Yes, sail sheeting, actual (rather than advertised) displacement, and many other things would make things move quicker. But be careful not to underestimate the power of massive data. Among other things it is the origin of the largest personal fortunes on the planet. We can (and do!) reconstruct your entire life just from tracking your cell phone position. Your individual computer is easily identified out of many hundreds of millions even without cookies by its fingerprint. While a few individual Beneatu 40'ers might be outliers in how they are loaded or sailed, tracking a few hundred continuously, and several hundred more very similar designs may yield some interesting conclusions when compared to a similar database on Pogos and catamarans and Bermuda 40s. A statistical of probabilistic model tells you little about an individual instance, but can tell quite a bit about a population. 

 

[SloopJonB]

Are you a member of the Académie Française? French is a codified language.

English is defined by usage not codification. That is a reality I sometimes rail against – how can you have more than two alternatives, moot is not mute, impact is not a verb etc etc – but when I do I am wrong because when a meaningful share of English speakers use these words differently from how I think they should be...their usage becomes the definition and my opinion becomes the ranting of fuddy-duddy...

(FWIW...my usage corresponds to your diagram)

Yeah, it's the illiterates that keep English alive.

One of God's cosmic jokes.

 

[El Borracho]

......

Or because you're sailing your home with all your possession, your family and your pet, and ocean sailing can be risky 1000's of miles from the nearest help, why seek out trouble? Tearing sails, breaking rigging fittings, or a dismasting would be very un-fun and expensive. 

I spent lots of time studying weather trying to avoid bad weather. It's more comfortable to avoid gales. Travel in lots of foreign countries is very interesting and challenging enough without getting hammered. If you're going for a daysail do you say "shit it's 15 knots forget it; I'll wait for a proper gale"

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

 

[Diarmuid]

Yes, sail sheeting, actual (rather than advertised) displacement, and many other things would make things move quicker. But be careful not to underestimate the power of massive data. Among other things it is the origin of the largest personal fortunes on the planet. We can (and do!) reconstruct your entire life just from tracking your cell phone position. Your individual computer is easily identified out of many hundreds of millions even without cookies by its fingerprint. While a few individual Beneatu 40'ers might be outliers in how they are loaded or sailed, tracking a few hundred continuously, and several hundred more very similar designs may yield some interesting conclusions when compared to a similar database on Pogos and catamarans and Bermuda 40s. A statistical of probabilistic model tells you little about an individual instance, but can tell quite a bit about a population. 

That's how they've got much better at hurricane track forecasting, for example. In complex multivariate systems, sometimes you start with maximal data sets and then model backwards thru raw computational power, rather than beginning with a few presumptive equations and projecting those forward. 

Your other points relate to Desirable Traits and to the post-mortems of the '79 Fastnet and '98 Sydney Hobart disasters. Much ink was spilled at the time about why a certain size or type of boat suffered worse than others. Re-evaluations suggest the controlling variable in both instances was not hull plan, or rig type, or storm tactics, or crew experience -- it was proximity to the strongest winds/worst waves. Thirty-ish foot IOR boats came off poorly in the Fastnet because those boats were grouped where the Irish Sea was roughest. 

 

[longy]

Your mistake is in failing to distinguish between two types of beamy boat:

1. a beamy IOR boat which carried some of its ballast in the ceiling, and the rest high up in the keel
   
2. a modern beamy boat, which carries its ballast in a deep bulb
   

That gives the modern boat a higher AVS than the IOR boat.

I think you are confusing IOR with a preceding RORC handicap, which had a credit for heavy deck construction. Many early Carter designs had steel decks to get credit. IOR put the lead in the bilges.

I have never seen ANY old racer with lead attached to the ceiling.

 

[estarzinger]

proximity to the strongest winds/worst waves. 

a pretty common finding.

there are usually very narrow bands or areas of quite significantly worst wind and waves.

it is one of the potential downsides of storm tactics which 'park' the boat - you would really rather NOT be parked in one of those peak zones - would really rather sail away from and out of them before you think about parking.

Which has all sorts of implications for boat design and tactics and weather thinking/planning.

 

[longy]

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

I think you are confusing the boat's actual performance against what the crew can achieve. Most cruiser's don't carry light air sails, they consign that storage area to things that matter more to them. And most do not want to be out in heavy conditions, that also does not correlate to their concept of sailing. And again, they don't have the sails to perform happily in those conditions.

 

[accnick]

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

Most experienced, competent, and rational  offshore cruisers choose and equip their boats for far more serious conditions than they hope to ever encounter. They try to cross oceans at the best times of year, and pay attention to the weather before departure and during their passages to minimize encounters with truly bad weather. To do anything else demonstrates a certain recklessness and disregard for their own well-being.

Sometimes, despite your preparations and planning, the shit hits the fan. Some of the worst weather I have encountered has been from features that are sub-synoptic in scale, and won't necessarily be identified by the best forecasting. The good thing is that because of their scale, they rarely last more than a few hours.

Leaving with serious large-scale weather in your path that might be avoided by waiting a couple of days or altering your route slightly is a personal choice, but one that I have chosen not to make.

And no, pleasant passages are not boring. They are a relief. My wife especially thinks that, and I agree.  Otherwise, our reasonably uneventful double-handed circumnavigation might have turned into a miserable single-handed one.

Your experience may vary.

 

[SemiSalt]

For those who have an interest in IOR yachts, I recommend following Julian Everitt on Facebook. He is an Englishman who designed a lot of IOR boats. His comments make it clear that the IOR changed over the years, so all the boats don't have all the flaws and idiosyncrasies. 

 

[Zonker]

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage?

Nope. But you were saying that people should not avoid gales because a sailing voyage without them would be boring. 

Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

Some people have heavy old fashioned boats that are overloaded won't sail well in light winds. Some are lazy and won't put up a spinnaker. I've encountered them too, including some well known sailors.

On our boat < 3knots of boat speed was my wife's limit. That's about 5 knots TWS for us. We LOVED passages of 8-12 knots wind. The boat sailed plenty fast enough and the seas were flat.

On our fat 30' mono hull it needed 8 knots before we got going.

 

[El Borracho]

Nope. But you were saying that people should not avoid gales because a sailing voyage without them would be boring. 

Yes, I wrote "boring." And then some sailor worried about breaking stuff. Pathetic in my book. When we leave California, when COVID releases us, I'm hoping a gale for a day or so. Get outta here! Make some latitudes. Leave the miserable fog and cold far behind, and quickly.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

almost certainly true if your time horizon is 'shortish' like since 1900.  I agree the shoulders of the cyclone seasons seem to have moved.

I dont have enough knowledge about the past say 5000 years to know if our 100 year system variability is unusual or not. And that starts to move into a PA discussion in any case.

Forget PA, think practical. Now there is NO certainty that there is a safe predictable gap between winter storms and summer storms.

 

[shaggybaxter]

I just wanted to say thanks to all the posters, this thread is utterly fascinating to read for a numpty like me.

Cheers all, more please.