Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts

[kent_island_sailor]

Is it prudent seamanship to head offshore, even coastal cruising in North America, if one doubts their own or their yacht's ability to safely endure a gale (>28 knots?) without damage? Tropical day-sailors should expect such conditions at any time. Sure, reasonable to avoid a gale if possible. However I would think the boats sailed by avid readers of the books being discussed here would be ready for a gale at any moment. And the crews not shy. Numerous talkative cruisers have told me over drinks, as if boasting, that they don't even bother with sails until 15 knots of wind is showing. Anyone else think a 15 to 27 knot wind range is a rather Undesireable Characteristic for a yacht?

Able to sail in a gale? If you define gale as anything over 28 knots of COURSE you need to be able to do it. That is just making miles for us sometimes. One great sail we had was leaving from Block Island for Cape May with about 35 knots on the beam. The seas were regular long period big rollers and it was easy fast sailing. One other time beating into 35 knots with confused 10-15 foot seas was just wet pounding misery, but we had a race to run. Most cruisers would have hated it. Cruisers tend to play the long game where beating the boat up when you don't have to just means repairs and dodging an angry wife.

I would not sail offshore if the boat would be in danger in 20 foot seas and 50 knot winds. I would also do a lot to avoid that condition.

 

[estarzinger]

Forget PA, think practical. Now there is NO certainty that there is a safe predictable gap between winter storms and summer storms.

well, there was never a totally safe gap . . . for instance there have always been some amount of December (and even January) Atlantic hurricanes (and sept/oct S pacific cyclones).  "Oct all over' was really always a myth.  It is just the frequency/risk seems to have increased.  But, as far as 'fundamentals' go, you always should have anticipated the possibility.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

You are going to make a mess using that plastic glass, @Jud - s/v Sputnik. Better just drink that most excellent internet opinion fluid from the bottle. As Borracho would.

Nah.  My (only) two liquor glasses on board are hard-won shot glasses from Rosie’s Bar and Grill in Pelican, Alaska.  Land of fog and cold that you so disparage.

Well, that oughta do for the new  mainsheet boom blocks.  Locations, I mean.

 

[shaggybaxter]

One dumb question from the peanut gallery. 

Does boat speed have a bearing in determining if a particular hull form is desirabie or undesirable?

I've been offshore in comfortable boats until the sea state builds to the point the boat is no longer comfortable and you're kinda trapped. When the wave sets are travelling faster than you, the boat goes from comfortable to downright awkward. You're options become limited to just toughing it out until mother nature gets bored and moves onto someone else. 

But if you are running quicker than the wave sets, the motion changes dramatically. The pitch/roll/yaw flattens out and the prior two handed half wheel turns as a wave catches you become an inch or two with a finger. Aside from the comfort level, one major advantage seems to be the fatigue level of the crew drops remarkably, which is another tick in the desirable column. And it seems to open up more options than just taking the flogging.  

So my question is......unless we were capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states when this book was written, are the resultant higher boat speeds from the newer hull /rig designs a big enough of a change to alter some of the opinions and observations made in the books of this era? 

Thanks!

SB

 

[MikeJohns]

I'm sure you recognize that there is no "best hull shape" for offshore cruising. It might be more uncomfortable beating upwind in 4m seas than a skinny CCA hull, but I bet you'd realize that if you bought a Pogo.

MSI limits (if you're talking about NATO limits or something similar) are impossible to achieve in ANY small boat in a F8 if you're still sailing upwind. 

........................

Sure for every condition you find yourself in you wish for a different boat. But the Pogo is an extreme hull-form by any measure.

As for Motion; not combat station MSI, just general habitability, what do you think the RAO's look like in say SS5 confused with little or no wind ?

You posted a GZ curve before for the Pogo. I was involved in putting another type of popular production boat into survey. The measured AVS was close to 10 degrees lower than the  marketing data for a fully optioned boat ex factory. 

I don't think a lot of published GZ_RM curves are very reliable. In this case the manufacturer didn't have a clue and the contracted external designer wouldn't answer emails.

 

[MikeJohns]

Yes, I wrote "boring." And then some sailor worried about breaking stuff. Pathetic in my book. When we leave California, when COVID releases us, I'm hoping a gale for a day or so. Get outta here! Make some latitudes. Leave the miserable fog and cold far behind, and quickly.

Great sailing when it's from the right direction. sometimes a cross sea can make conditions a bit miserable though. Our best averages well over 200 mile days are in gales in the right direction. Exhilerating but rotating the helm every half hour between the few crew that could helm downwind at night on a compass bearing.

 

[accnick]

One dumb question from the peanut gallery. 

Does boat speed have a bearing in determining if a particular hull form is desirabie or undesirable?

I've been offshore in comfortable boats until the sea state builds to the point the boat is no longer comfortable and you're kinda trapped. When the wave sets are travelling faster than you, the boat goes from comfortable to downright awkward. You're options become limited to just toughing it out until mother nature gets bored and moves onto someone else. 

But if you are running quicker than the wave sets, the motion changes dramatically. The pitch/roll/yaw flattens out and the prior two handed half wheel turns as a wave catches you become an inch or two with a finger. Aside from the comfort level, one major advantage seems to be the fatigue level of the crew drops remarkably, which is another tick in the desirable column.  

So my question is......unless we were capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states when this book was written, are higher boat speeds enough of a change to alter some of the opinions and observations made in the books of this era? 

Thanks!

SB

In deep water, the bigger the waves get, the further apart the crests are, but generally speaking, the waves are always moving faster than any boat I've ever sailed on offshore, even if you are running with them.

My experience is that the bigger the boat, the more comfortable she will be in a building seaway, and the more in control of your life you will feel sailing off the wind, even though you have to pay attention to your steering.

Planing boats may be entirely different, but I've never sailed one of those well offshore in really big seas. I have sailed  Santa Cruz 70s in long distance (say, 200+ miles) coastal races in heavy inshore conditions--say, 25-30kt of true wind or more-- and the difference in comfort between upwind and downwind was stunning for someone who had never sailed a boat of that type in those conditions before.

When the wind is blowing 25+ and you are spinnaker reaching at 20+ knots, everything seems remarkably easy on a 70-footer built for those conditions and angles. On a similarly-sized racing lead mine, things get tense in the same conditions when the boat accelerates much past 15-17 knots, and the steering can be both more difficult and more critical to maintaining speed, comfort, and directional stability.

But there is no free lunch. Turn upwind in those conditions, and the SC 70 may pound your teeth out, while the lead mine will give you delusions of power and grandeur while only going 9.5 kt in reasonable comfort, even if it goes up and down a lot.

 

[CapDave]

I conclude from this thread so far that the most desirable characteristic is LOA. And lots of it. Lacking that, the need is for sea room. 

I've read as much as anyone and the one thing that sticks with me wasn't from Hiscock or Blyth but our own E Starzinger who commented he and Beth had circumnavigated the globe without encountering over 35kts of wind. Regardless of boat or skipper competence, no pre-electronics sailor can make a statement like that. Ergo, the most desirable thing is a modern nav/weather setup.

It was actually Eric Hiscock who wrote (having done it) that it was possible to circumnavigate without encountering sustained winds over 30 knots, maybe three or four decades earlier?? Done with a sextant and I believe a short wave.

 

[estarzinger]

 capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states 

Many people under appreciate wave physics. Fully developed seas/waves from 30kt winds will average 17kts speed.  Not many cruising boats can sustain 17kt average . . . and that is not even in a gale when the required speed would be higher (like a sustained 23kt average boat speed) to 'stay in front of the waves'.

 

[Ishmael]

Many people under appreciate wave physics. Fully developed seas/waves from 30kt winds will average 17kts speed.  Not many cruising boats can sustain 17kt average . . . and that is not even in a gale when the required speed would be higher (like a sustained 23kt average boat speed) to 'stay in front of the waves'.

The latest trend in family cruising boats for weather-beating speed...

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

The latest trend in family cruising boats for weather-beating speed...

Love it when the cool racing stuff trickles down to us cruising plebeians.  

 

[Blue Crab]

It was actually Eric Hiscock who wrote (having done it) that it was possible to circumnavigate without encountering sustained winds over 30 knots, maybe three or four decades earlier?? Done with a sextant and I believe a short wave.

I stand corrected. I'd have lost a bet on that.

 

[CapDave]

You know who to get the best advice from? Delivery skippers.

It isn't their boat, they aren't in love with her and blind to her flaws. They have to get the boat from A to B despite the weather or the owner would be making the trip, so they bang through uncomfortable weather instead of waiting a few weeks for the perfect reach in 15 knots. They sail a variety of boats, not just one.

* pet rant, total n00b sails around the world in a Catalina 30 with orange sails or an old wood schooner or whatever and then becomes an expert in everything and decides his way is the only way to do it. He has never tried anything else

After owning a few boats and realizing I couldn't really afford the cruising lifestyle - I did deliveries for a few years in the '80's before deciding it was enormously dangerous, and switched to full-time skippers jobs. I had a great skill set and a terrible personality for chauffeuring rich people around on their yachts, so I continued to experience a wide range of yachts!

And it's quite true - we were just about moving the boat. You get to the dock, you have a couple of hours to survey the boat and decide if you want to bet your life on her, and if you decide no you were probably out the travel money to get there. The default was to just go, at least I never said no - a few times I wish I had.

The resulting very wide range of experience has been extraordinarily valuable now later in life out cruising my own boat again. There are so many solutions to most problems!

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik]

To the OP, maybe just read the book.  This thread is going nowhere.

Really?  It’s going everywhere (which was sort of a problem, when various folks were getting really grouchy several hours ago).

1700 views, 150 posts.  I get 50 cents per view/click, so I’m doing alright

I think there are plenty of interesting observations, accusations, and attestations in this thread - it’s a fascinating topic.  Think of it like the peer review process in an academic journal - except the sniping is done right out in the open, not couched in carefully crafted academicspeak buried in an esoteric research paper.  Which is why it’s so good. I’m enjoying this thread - still don’t quite grasp the culture wars of CCA and IOR, but I’m starting to get a better feel for it.

Here’s Dan Spurr (author of “Heart of Glass”, I believe): This second installment of SAIL’s series on the evolution of modern sailboat design focuses on the 1970’s—the IOR decade and beyond

 

[Ishmael]

Really?  It’s going everywhere (which was sort of a problem, when various folks were getting really grouchy several hours ago).

1700 views, 150 posts.  I get 50 cents per view/click, so I’m doing alright

I think there are plenty of interesting observations, accusations, and attestations in this thread - it’s a fascinating topic.  Think of it like the peer review process in an academic journal - except the sniping is done right out in the open, not couched in carefully crafted academicspeak buried in an esoteric research paper.  Which is why it’s so good. I’m enjoying this thread - still don’t quite grasp the culture wars of CCA and IOR, but I’m starting to get a better feel for it.

Here’s Dan Spurr (author of “Heart of Glass”, I believe): This second installment of SAIL’s series on the evolution of modern sailboat design focuses on the 1970’s—the IOR decade and beyond

If you want to read the D&UC book, I will happily loan you my copy. Or any of my other books, for that matter.

 

[Cruisin Loser]

One dumb question from the peanut gallery. 

Does boat speed have a bearing in determining if a particular hull form is desirabie or undesirable?

I've been offshore in comfortable boats until the sea state builds to the point the boat is no longer comfortable and you're kinda trapped. When the wave sets are travelling faster than you, the boat goes from comfortable to downright awkward. You're options become limited to just toughing it out until mother nature gets bored and moves onto someone else. 

But if you are running quicker than the wave sets, the motion changes dramatically. The pitch/roll/yaw flattens out and the prior two handed half wheel turns as a wave catches you become an inch or two with a finger. Aside from the comfort level, one major advantage seems to be the fatigue level of the crew drops remarkably, which is another tick in the desirable column. And it seems to open up more options than just taking the flogging.  

So my question is......unless we were capable of doing the speeds necessary to stay in front of dirty sea states when this book was written, are the resultant higher boat speeds from the newer hull /rig designs a big enough of a change to alter some of the opinions and observations made in the books of this era? 

Thanks!

SB

Will the boat do that on autopilot? Will it go that fast, safely, with a husband and wife offshore who cannot be trimming and steering constantly? Serious  question, because I've only ever sailed leadmines offshore.

 

[CapDave]

a pretty common finding.

there are usually very narrow bands or areas of quite significantly worst wind and waves.

it is one of the potential downsides of storm tactics which 'park' the boat - you would really rather NOT be parked in one of those peak zones - would really rather sail away from and out of them before you think about parking.

Which has all sorts of implications for boat design and tactics and weather thinking/planning.

This is where modern comms come into play. I have a reasonably fast boat - my main bad weather tactic is avoidance. If I know where the worst parts are via satellite, I can stop before I meet them, or I can sail away from the worst part and meet a lesser part. I never understand people with fairly capable boats, and a schedule imposed only by themselves, who insist on getting whacked. Schedules can be deadly - deliveries, owners, races....

 

[DDW]

Great sailing when it's from the right direction. sometimes a cross sea can make conditions a bit miserable though. Our best averages well over 200 mile days are in gales in the right direction. Exhilerating but rotating the helm every half hour between the few crew that could helm downwind at night on a compass bearing.

Why wasn't the autopilot steering? 

Many people under appreciate wave physics. Fully developed seas/waves from 30kt winds will average 17kts speed.  Not many cruising boats can sustain 17kt average . . . and that is not even in a gale when the required speed would be higher (like a sustained 23kt average boat speed) to 'stay in front of the waves'.

This calls back to the other thread (on planing cruising boats) and the distortion of human perception about averages. Fully crewed racing trimarans have a chance of staying ahead of the weather, or getting out of its way. The boats most us have (and that includes the Pogos), don't. 

 

[estarzinger]

This is where modern comms come into play. 

yes, exactly.

A small complication is that the gribs particularly (but also the 'human' met products, especially offshore) systematically underrepresent these 'small hot zones'. So you as the user need to have enough knowledge/experience to know when they will likely be there based on the system that is shown.  This has gotten better over time as grib cell sizes have decreased but is still an area where human judgement and art is quite valuable.

 

[estarzinger]

I came close to building an Irons tri (a 50) - until the wife nixed it, she has no problem with speed or risk but did not like the motion at all.