Difference between Bladerider and Mach 2?

Tom2063

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Geelong
To all you mothies out there,

This may be a dumb question, but what is the main difference between a Bladerider VRX and a Mach 2? Speed, weight, foils ??

Cheers in advance

Tom

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
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Sydney
The BR VRX, RX and FX were built in Taiwan and had some serious build quality issues. This and the arrival of the M2 saw the end of BR. Not many were built and there may be good ones but if you are considering a purchase look really carefully to avoid a dud. The BR X8s were mostly built in China by McConnaughtys who build the Mach2 and the quality is more reliable.

Some of the Taiwan hulls had hull lamination problems, soft resin and porosity, so its hard to imagine than any of these have survived. The FX was glass and foam so heavier than the carbon versions. I saw a dismantled FX where the internal component fit was non existant. It was not only heavy, leaked badly but fell appart as well.

Even the X8s from China had problems with the foredeck/hull seams cracking near the front wing. But many have been repaired and continue to sail well.

All BR suffer from a short rudder, and inadequate stiffness in the rudder, gentry and centreboard. The screws which hold the foils on the bottom of the verticals also come loose and lots of BR foils remain on the bottom of the harbour as a result.

Basically all these design and quality issues were addressed by AMAC as designer and McConnaghtys as builders in the Mach2. The Mach 2 goes faster, stays together better and has improved control systems. Thats what we now pay the extra money for.

Mach2 are soon to release a low cost moth, nothing like a mach2, not expected to be as fast as a mach2, but certainly a cheaper option for foiling on a budget. Keep an eye on the Mach2/KA website for release date. AMAC was planning to have some sailing by the end of the year if all goes well. You had to be at The Foiling Week to see the images.

 

Phil S

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And the Bladerider foil design is nearly 10 years old. Moth foils have come a long way in that time.

 

Tom2063

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Geelong
Thanks for the replies guys, very interesting.

Reason for the question is there is a BR VRX for sale in Aus for quite cheap, thought it might be

a good entry level boat into the class. My main focus is 29ers so I can't dish out to much cash, but

seeing as there are numerous issues, would spending more to get a Mach 2 seem reasonable?

How much do they usually go for?

I'm not planning on winning any worlds either, just planning on having fun on foils

Cheers

 

BR3232

Member
271
2
Thanks for the replies guys, very interesting.

Reason for the question is there is a BR VRX for sale in Aus for quite cheap, thought it might be

a good entry level boat into the class. My main focus is 29ers so I can't dish out to much cash, but

seeing as there are numerous issues, would spending more to get a Mach 2 seem reasonable?

How much do they usually go for?

I'm not planning on winning any worlds either, just planning on having fun on foils

Cheers
As Phil partially said;

  • Everything is lighter
  • Everything is stiffer
  • Everything is newer
  • Everything is more expensive
An average-to-good Mach2 will run you upwards of $17k in Australia. Boats with a few foils/sails/masts go up for 20+... If you're not looking at spending that much and you just want to have fun, find an X8 or Prowler. Obviously a Mach2 will far outlast a BR, and as you get better you'll become much more competitive rather than very slightly more competitive (still, nailing every tack, gybe and shift in a slower boat is faster than a faster boat that screws every second or third maneuver). I bought an X8 a few months ago and it's been a really good experience so far and I've learnt quickly (with plenty of help from others!). If you're interested in a VRX then I would look over it very thoroughly and find out as much as you can about its sailing history to date. Given their record however, I'd be reluctant.

Very interested in this new Mach2 project... :ph34r:

 
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Ncik

Super Anarchist
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Get the owner to take it for a sail in front of you in atleast 15 knots before jumping on any second hand moth, unless you're happy to repair it.

 

RobG

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Somewhere between 2-5kts.
Until you reach foiling speed, when it will be somewhere between 5 and 15 kn.

After a few hours in 15 to 20 kn the VRX will be doing a good imitation of flotsam, so whatever the Mach 2 is doing less whatever something drifting on the tide is making.

 

BR3232

Member
271
2
Somewhere between 2-5kts.
Until you reach foiling speed, when it will be somewhere between 5 and 15 kn.

After a few hours in 15 to 20 kn the VRX will be doing a good imitation of flotsam, so whatever the Mach 2 is doing less whatever something drifting on the tide is making.
Anything more than 5kts is a pretty gross exaggeration.

 

Tom2063

New member
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Geelong
Thanks for the comments guys,

So basically the VRX is the bladerider that fills with water and becomes drift wood.

Any suggestions on cheap moths that float? I'm a 16 year old student so cant afford anything close to a mach 2!

Cheers

Tom

 

Phil S

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Any moth older than 3 or 4 years will need lots of work to repar worn out stuff, and maintain things which will be wearing out. There are lots of mechanical fittings and linkages which have to work properly or the boat becomes a real challenge to sail. That applies to all boats even to Mach2s to some extent.

Then there is the obscelecene from being a fast moving development class. In 4 years there has been a at least 4 new foil options, many sail and mast options. Hulls have not changed much but vertical foils ahve got longer and stiffer, and horizontals have got stiffer, higher aspect ration and the sections are getting more specialised for either early take off or top speed.

Probably more than any other class the moth is a collection of critical components, and upgradeing any of them on an old boat will give better reliability as well as speed benefits. Buying a cheap moth will get you sailing but will also keep you in the workshop a lot more than a new boat and can if you are not wary, see you continuously spending money on upgrades if you want to go as fast as the newer boats.

It will also present the dilemma of choosing to waste money on foil upgrades with no increase in resale value, or saving your money to upgrade the whle boat.

Like someone else said, see the boat sail in 15kts and see what fails to perform as needed. Consider if you have the worshop and skills to fix what might go wrong then make a decision.

 
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17mika

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Milan, Italy
Thanks for the comments guys,

So basically the VRX is the bladerider that fills with water and becomes drift wood.

Any suggestions on cheap moths that float? I'm a 16 year old student so cant afford anything close to a mach 2!

Cheers

Tom
A good option iin Aus would probably be BR X8, or a late prowler maybe.

Here in Europe probably the ninja is the way to go.

In each case the most important thing to understand is if the owner took care of the boat (sails regularly, does races, replaces things that wear) or not. Be prepared to fix and replace stuff, as part of your sailing activity

EDIT : basically what Phil said

 
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Tom,

The best lot of Bladeriders were X8s with sail numbers 3290 and above. There were only about 6 or 7 VRXs ever made, while in the right hands they did OK, the Mach2 is a superior product and it's not surprising that the guys who ran the VRX's all swapped to Mach2s very quickly after the Gorge worlds as Bladerider neatly collapsed in a bankrupt pile. The only VRX I'd buy is the one that Rob Gough had at the Gorge, and it's the only one in decent nick... and it's in Tasmania. Also, while mach2 does support the bladerider fleet with a trickle of spare parts, the level of factory support isn't what it used to be for BR owners.

As for Prowlers, they are beautifully made (John is one of but a few in Aus who can truely be called a master in the black art of composites), but fell behind the development curve pretty quickly around the beginning of the Bladerider era... and John is only catching up now with new designs. There are at least 3 extremely good examples of the breed in WA potentially looking for new owners in the near future as they are looking to upgrade to new Fastacraft boats, all looking around the $10-14k range with new generation foils, rigs and control gear. Unfortunately, this is pretty close to mach2 money, and the mach2 track record, newer tech and factory support is probably worth the extra money. But John also looks after his clients, and their boats, very nicely.

As for the occasional Assassin that comes on the market - take it from the guy who had the first one in Aus... it's just not worth the trouble. There was one in Tas recently with a new mach2 foil... if it was a deal at $4k, I would've bought it for the main foil, stripped the boat for fittings and binned the hull.

That all being said, my current moth is good for 25 knots and cost me $3500. It's not as good as the boat it replaces, but bang for your buck... I'd happily put hand on heart and say it's the fastest "sailboat" in Far North Queensland at the moment when upright in one piece and one of the cheapest. Yes... there are some caveats. It's a homebuild. But, it shows that there are options around for those wanting to moth on a budget. You just need to be in the right place at the right time and be willing to deal with having a one-off and all the issues that entails. As Colin said, to replace a centreboard, it would cost me more than the initial purchase price (and it is not impossible to do a foil in... plus they're not a nice thing to try and fix) and it all adds up by the time you put a mast or new sail on, and don't really expect to take on mach2's any time soon (older foils, a few small leaks to track down and fix... whacky homebuild gearing system of my own design that is mounted on a bowsprit... you can kinda get the picture).

I suggest you talk with Tom Stuchbery down your part of the world, or one of the various other melbourne-based mothies for more advice or a trial sail before you go buy one; these aren't boats that you can just step onto off a 29er. But, your boat handing skills will improve quite markedly on any other boat you sail when you get the hang of a moth.

 
Mach2 are soon to release a low cost moth, nothing like a mach2, not expected to be as fast as a mach2, but certainly a cheaper option for foiling on a budget. Keep an eye on the Mach2/KA website for release date. AMAC was planning to have some sailing by the end of the year if all goes well. You had to be at The Foiling Week to see the images.
any news of this low cost mach2 ?

 

teknologika

Anarchist
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1
Firstly, I would not think of it as a low cost Mach 2, the Wazsp (?) will be quite different and is aimed at a very different market.

I expect AMac will keep it under "loose" wraps until it is commercially ready. He would be crazy to give other builders a heads up before launch.

 

Phil S

Super Anarchist
2,602
229
Sydney
The Wazsp looks like a moth, it will measure as a moth, it still has wings and foils in the same positions, it will be like a current moth to sail, except maybe simpler with less adjustments, but there are differences which make it cheaper to build, simpler to rig and more attractive to younger people and their parents who have to part with their money. That logically means less carbon and more weight.

Because of the weight and the simpler rig it should not be as fast as a Mach2, but AMAC has said he plans to sail on in the Sorrento Worlds in January, with hope of getting into the Gold fleet.

I understand that tooling is well on the way and some components have started production. Like a Mach2 there are a lot of parts to get right.

No one has yet seen one but some impressive digital images were shown to The Foiling Week attendees. Its not a secret, but we will not get more to see until they build a dedicated web site and have some product to show off.

Too many optimistic people go for premature publicity and fail to deliver on their promises, the Mach2 team are smart enough to not show too much until they are ready to deliver.

 

Bad Andy

Anarchist
988
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Chicago
I had a BR X8 just come up for US$5.5k (US$6.5k after replacing the split main horizontal). Looking for a beginner boat to bash around in on lake Michigan and sell in a few years when I can afford a better boat. Should I wait for the Wazp or go for the X8? Not sure of the hull number but it was built in 07. Is this one going to fall apart on m?

 
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