Dip pole gybe - keep lazy sheet on top pole

[suider]

This thread is giving me the chills.... meeting your mastman on the first day of a weekend, dip (penalty) pole gybes with a-kites, hearing the pole clatter on the forestay and just KNOW that the pit is now going to blow the topper.... good times....

 

[Archytec]

Back in the old days when you needed 6 guys on the foredeck we fixed that problem by having 2 poles. It was too hard to dip pole with a fixed inner forestay.

Each pole 33feet long and weighed in at about 80lbs each.

PS that wet soggy Dacron #Genoa weighed in at 275lbs

 

[Tax Man]

A walk back to the pit with a winch handle can help to reinforce this lesson.

I have led a charmed life and never felt inclined to do violence upon my pit person.

Trimmers are a different story.

 

[jackolantern]

Just suit up the bowman and send him out!

 

[RATM]

As a last resort, your bowman may need to shimmy out to the end of the pole. A good bowman will have his or her own harness

 

[AnotherSailor]

Best "bowmen" are in my experience not men. Or maybe they are good because helm,  trimmer, and pit person finally have their shit together because they want to impress the bowwoman.

 

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

Nope.  You've got a high-load guy shackle clipped to a mid-range sheet shackle, or your sheet shackle is too heavy.  And if you shake loose the sheet shackle, you've got an expensive flag.   

See Post 31 for the right way to do it ... on my bow.   

If you're that shit at your job you can't close clips properly and they shake loose you're welcome to your bow. I don't want you near mine.

 

[Left Shift]

If you're that shit at your job you can't close clips properly and they shake loose you're welcome to your bow. I don't want you near mine.

Thank you for your comment on my abilities.  Clearly you are superior in all things nautical.  Unfortunately there seems little risk of our paths crossing, much to my personal loss, I'm sure.

 

[view at the front]

One of my best sailing moves ever was in Sydney Harbor.  We had chartered a Frers 42 to do the Sydney-Hobart in 1996.  Ron Jacobs had arranged for the charter and we were out practicing gybes.  I'm on the foredeck, we're about the gybe, and he says:  We're not ready.  But actually I am ready, grab the lazy sheet that was under the pole tip, and say:  Yee Haw, and send a loop in the sheet that flips over the end of the pole.  Clearly he had never been in the American West.  

To compound things, there was a submarine leaving the wharf directly in front of us.  ALL of the sailors had their backs to us and were waving goodbye to loved ones.  The clunk on their hull would have been monumental if the gybe had failed.

 

[Meat Wad]

View attachment 392759

A bit bigger than the Ed's E-35 but non the less it will be tough transition from an FT 10M to an E-35 when gybing.

• Mast and bow must know their shit
  
• at least 2 trimmers that know what they are doing
  
• A main trimmer that will not blanket the spin.
  
• A driver that can keep the spin full
  

I think an FT 10M would be more fun. At least SD is mostly light to moderate air.

 

[Left Shift]

Being part of the A-sail brigade these days, does anyone still in symmetrical land still use those linked snap shackles to set up peels from the pole end.  So the bow girl could switch the guy from the old kite to the new kite without moving the pole inboard?  Those were useful bits of hardware.

Speaking of rockstar bow girls, my favorite was one who - after I asked her to do something fairly tricky and athletic* - walked aft to the helm, punched me in the gut to see if I was in good enough shape and thus worthy of asking for her efforts.  Fortunately I got my abs tensed up just in time and she agreed to hook up and go aloft. 

* Go up and put the T-fitting of the leeward runner back into its socket, The keeper had fallen out and so the runner had jumped out and was on the deck and we need to tack pretty soon.  She did it but only as we sloooow tacked over, while she got it put together.

 

[Raz'r]

I always thought the dip-pole was a thing of beauty, keeping the kite flying and letting the team do their work. . Now that I’m flying Assyms on a penalty pole, the dance has been replace by the brute force of running 80’ of sheet. 
 

yes, the sailplan is faster, but the joy of the teamwork is a bit lost.

 

[Raz'r]

Being part of the A-sail brigade these days, does anyone still in symmetrical land still use those linked snap shackles to set up peels from the pole end.  So the bow girl could switch the guy from the old kite to the new kite without moving the pole inboard?  Those were useful bits of hardware.

Speaking of rockstar bow girls, my favorite was one who - after I asked her to do something fairly tricky and athletic* - walked aft to the helm, punched me in the gut to see if I was in good enough shape and thus worthy of asking for her efforts.  Fortunately I got my abs tensed up just in time and she agreed to hook up and go aloft. 

* Go up and put the T-fitting of the leeward runner back into its socket, The keeper had fallen out and so the runner had jumped out and was on the deck and we need to tack pretty soon.  She did it but only as we sloooow tacked over, while she got it put together.

We trained a GREAT bow gal on the express. She always looked like a drowned rat but always had the biggest smile. More gung-ho to do that sort of shit than anyone I had met till we recruited a rock-star for the Santa Cruz.

he of course would have “no opinion” - hey John, getting marginal on the A2, thinking A4. Thoughts?

”none, kites go up, kites come down. Matters little else to me”

 

[sledracr]

yes, the sailplan is faster, but the joy of the teamwork is a bit lost.

Agreed.  I remember one gibe in particular, SoCal midwinter regatta on a 50-footer, headed straight toward the LA breakwater at full speed, and needed to pull off a perfect gibe, right at the breakwater, in order to keep position on (and gain tactical control of) another boat.

Nailed it.  Pole never slowed down on its arc through the foretriangle.  All the string-pullers did a flawless job, the driver made the right move in the right way at the right spot, and the rest of us did our parts. 

Walking back from the point I remember thinking "dayummm, that was fun!"

 

[Snaggletooth]

Usualley at weeklongue regattas thinges licke juste gotte perfeckted throuh repettione...............                 

 

[hobot]

• Mast and bow must know their shit
  
• at least 2 trimmers that know what they are doing
  
• A main trimmer that will not blanket the spin.
  
• A driver that can keep the spin full
  
• A Pit that knows precisely where to drop the topping lift to so that it does not hit the forstay nor the deck
  

 

[AnotherSailor]

Now that I’m flying Assyms on a penalty pole, the dance has been replace by the brute force of running 80’ of sheet. 

Yes totally! The only way to fuck it up is by not running the sheet fast enough.

Or look at the VO65s and other ocean racers: furl the Code0, gybe, unfurl. It looks ridiculous and slow. Yeah, I know, makes sense for an ocean race, but wouldn't it be fun to have them do the in port races with an actual spinnaker and pole? It would be nice to see some clusterfucks.

 

[Rain Man]

Yes totally! The only way to fuck it up is by not running the sheet fast enough.

...

Yeah, they said gybing with assyms would be so much easier.  I don't notice much difference really, you still need the bow, cockpit and driver to be well coordinated, and the clusterfucks are only slightly less frequent.

 

[AnotherSailor]

Yeah, they said gybing with assyms would be so much easier.  I don't notice much difference really, you still need the bow, cockpit and driver to be well coordinated, and the clusterfucks are only slightly less frequent.

That is probably somewhat true. The bow just needs strength and a slight sense of timing to 1) yank the sheet down when the clew is about to cross the forestay and 2) when the clusterfuck occurs just hang with their full weight on the assym until forestay and sail are separated again. 

 

[Dogfish4255]

If the OP's issue is a pattern, it's a cockpit problem, not a bow problem.  If the sail is flying correctly and is rotated correctly through the gybe, as others have pointed out, the sheets are loaded, and will remain higher than the guy until the pole is brought back on the new guy.  Double tapping is great for first set.  I have yet to see or care when sheet/guy are rigged separately or in tandem, but tandem is always sheet clipped to guy, and separate only seems advantageous to teams who have their shit together in relatively light conditions when you'd want the option to drop the typically substantially heavier guy.

Party in the front is typically caused by too much party in the back.  When the decisions, driver, main, and headsail trimming is firing correctly, the difficulties up front are significantly reduced.  Rodeo is a bandaid/workaround for trimming errors, which may or may not be related to driving or decisions.