Dip start after the gun

[TJSoCal]

I understand the frustration RC has with getting a start off sometimes, but IMHO, going to the Black Flag is disrespectful of the time, money, and effort it takes for sailors to get to some of these regattas. It devalues the experience.

Seems like U and Black are usually intended to discourage a large fleet, frequently of smaller boats, from being too aggressive on the line. Sometimes the PRO will put up with a general recall or two first, but often if an aggressive fleet is anticipated they’ll do the first sequence under U and if there’s a general on that they’ll go to Black. And I’ve seen events where the question is put to the competitors in the initial PRO briefing and the fleet requests U-Black. That either calms down or eliminates the too-aggressive starters.

Mainly out of respect for the boats that would rather do one good, fair start than five general recalls.

 

[knh555]

Seems like U and Black are usually intended to discourage a large fleet, frequently of smaller boats, from being too aggressive on the line. Sometimes the PRO will put up with a general recall or two first, but often if an aggressive fleet is anticipated they’ll do the first sequence under U and if there’s a general on that they’ll go to Black. And I’ve seen events where the question is put to the competitors in the initial PRO briefing and the fleet requests U-Black. That either calms down or eliminates the too-aggressive starters.

Mainly out of respect for the boats that would rather do one good, fair start than five general recalls.

I understand the purpose. But not everyone at these regattas is sailing to win. If I’m going to spend a couple grand getting to and competing in a regatta, for example, I want to sail and socialize. So what if it takes five starts to get a race off. Seriously. I know I’m in the minority in some regards here, but I’m now one less boat that will travel to certain events. Such is life.

I think the Z flag strikes a better balance.

 

[duncan (the other one)]

Of course, but the RC feel a SI would be clearer - we have entrants that don't understand the flags as well as they should.

what makes them think that people who don't read the RRS (which haven't changed significantly for years) will read the SI's (which vary regatta to regatta, and even within a club are often revised yearly).

 

[dogwatch]

I understand the frustration RC has with getting a start off sometimes, but IMHO, going to the Black Flag is disrespectful of the time, money, and effort it takes for sailors to get to some of these regattas. It devalues the experience.

I remember the last one quite well. Around 40 boats.They were primarily a large local fleet. Maybe some visitors. Day 1 every race needed black flag to finally get it away and yes, Z flag was tried but failed to curb the fleet‘s start line exuberance. On the 2nd day, the RC wanted to get three races off in a shallow area out of the powerful tide in the main channel. Solent locals can guess where I mean, it is an area often used for day racer type fleets. There are only so many hours a day there is enough water. So the RC went directly to black flag to get the scheduled races in.

 

[mccroc]

I agree, why discourage a dip start. Its another tool in the toolbag of racing. However a boat dip starting has few rights as they are almost certainly the windward boat if the line is square. When the line is so badly set that the fleet want to start on port, the dip start on starboard is king.

The Twilight races start at a fixed area, and the first mark is almost always a reach on port. So the starboard tacker dipping the line has all the rights. For some reason the club thinks that's unfair or dangerous...hence the new SI.

 

[duncan (the other one)]

The Twilight races start at a fixed area, and the first mark is almost always a reach on port. So the starboard tacker dipping the line has all the rights. For some reason the club thinks that's unfair or dangerous...hence the new SI.

pretty naive of the RC to think this will solve the issue. There is nothing to stop someone either running the line on stb (upwind or down, depending on breeze angle), or coming in on stb from the course-side of the line, but outside the first-mark triangle, and causing the same level of chaos.

The 'I' flag would get closer to fixing it, by at least preventing the course-side starters from coming in at either end.

I distinctly remember a chaotic offshore start some years back where they'd set a similar line, and three or four of us came to the pin (which was the windward end of the line) on stbd from the course-side. Much amusement.

EDIT: Mr red is screwed.

 

[Brass]

To be precise, only if in the triangle made by the line and top mark. You can be upwind of the line as long as you’re to starboard of the RC or port of the pin facing upwind.

Doesn’t this mean you can technically dip start as long as you cross the bow of the RC boat after the gun, making for a late start of course. My understanding is the one-minute rule only applies during the last minute before the start. Is this correct? I can imagine a crowded barging situation where that becomes the least bad option for a given boat.

Yes, Z, U, and Black Flag penalties only apply in the triangle and in the last minute before the starting signal.

A boat can hover on course side but outside the triangle and dip start after the starting signal, but after the starting signal until her hull is completely on the pre start side, she is necessarily sailing towards the pre start side and required by rule 21.1 to keep clear of every boat that has started or is about to start.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Seems like U and Black are usually intended to discourage a large fleet, frequently of smaller boats, from being too aggressive on the line. Sometimes the PRO will put up with a general recall or two first, but often if an aggressive fleet is anticipated they’ll do the first sequence under U and if there’s a general on that they’ll go to Black. And I’ve seen events where the question is put to the competitors in the initial PRO briefing and the fleet requests U-Black. That either calms down or eliminates the too-aggressive starters.

Mainly out of respect for the boats that would rather do one good, fair start than five general recalls.

I'd prefer a longer line, with a mid-line buoy if necessary (these can be tricky to set square though); or a gate start.

We did gate starts as alternatives to splitting fleets or have a dozen recalls to get off a race, in the Lightning fleets in the 1990s. Not such big fleets although big by modern standards (40~50 boats) and they -hated- gate starts for reasons I don't quite grasp.

 

[Svanen]

Other competitors have never seen it before so didn't think it was legal. Now the Race Committee want to put in place a special SI to disallow it.Ha

Has anyone at the club - including the RC - actually read the RRS? Ever?

I understand the frustration RC has with getting a start off sometimes, but IMHO, going to the Black Flag is disrespectful of the time, money, and effort it takes for sailors to get to some of these regattas. It devalues the experience.

It depends. Are the sailors at the regatta to race, or for starting practice sessions?

I think the Z flag strikes a better balance.

Fair enough! You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Volunteer as RO, and which flag is used will be your discretion.

 

[crashtack]

I understand the frustration RC has with getting a start off sometimes, but IMHO, going to the Black Flag is disrespectful of the time, money, and effort it takes for sailors to get to some of these regattas. It devalues the experience.

just... don't be over?

 

[mccroc]

Has anyone at the club - including the RC - actually read the RRS? Ever?

Yes of course the RC has read the RRS. They just seem to want to dumb the rules down for twilight racing, where most of the entrants are inexperienced. I have argued against it.

 

[barleymalt]

I understand the frustration RC has with getting a start off sometimes, but IMHO, going to the Black Flag is disrespectful of the time, money, and effort it takes for sailors to get to some of these regattas. It devalues the experience.

Well, that depends on the fleets, conditions, and the RO. Running races with multiple starts, when one class forces several general recalls it devalues the experience for the other racers. In all the years I have done RC, I have seen black flag starts a couple of times, and have never used one as a PRO. It should be a last resort and not a first, but there are times when it is warranted.

 

[knh555]

just... don't be over?

Once upon a time, touching a mark was an instant DSQ. Why did we change that rule to allow a spin? Just don’t touch the mark. But we moved away from the inability in exonerate yourself to improve the experience. IMHO, the black flag moves us backwards towards that previous thinking and racing culture. Are we not allowed to voice an opinion about a specific rule?

I know lots of people take a more hard core perspective than I do on this. Those are the people who will keep traveling to regattas no matter what. Finding balance between the fun and racing - and this may just be one example - may help preserve some fleet size. I haven’t seen too many regattas close registration due to too many boats lately.

 

[knh555]

Well, that depends on the fleets, conditions, and the RO. Running races with multiple starts, when one class forces several general recalls it devalues the experience for the other racers. In all the years I have done RC, I have seen black flag starts a couple of times, and have never used one as a PRO. It should be a last resort and not a first, but there are times when it is warranted.

I see it all too often/regularly in single class/single start regattas. That’s the perspective I’m coming from.

 

[RobbieB]

That's not necessarily a happy analogy, as I've done quite a few regattas where the black flag went up on the first attempted start.

I'm seeing more U flags used these days.

 

[JimC]

I understand the frustration RC has with getting a start off sometimes, but IMHO, going to the Black Flag is disrespectful of the time, money, and effort it takes for sailors to get to some of these regattas. It devalues the experience.

Isn't that something the fleet should agree with the RC before the event? If the fleet would like to get a race away as soon as possible why shouldn't they ask for a black flag from the first start? But equally if a fleet is happy to spend half a day on starting practice a good RC ought to accommodate them.

 

[knh555]

Isn't that something the fleet should agree with the RC before the event? If the fleet would like to get a race away as soon as possible why shouldn't they ask for a black flag from the first start? But equally if a fleet is happy to spend half a day on starting practice a good RC ought to accommodate them.

Sure. But at regattas, not all RCs are interested in having that discussion.

 

[The Q]

Dip starts are done at my club, more often because of being forced over than choice.
Risking it by choice may well cause you to be driven up river by the rest of the fleet.

As for going round the ends , that only achievable with the use of a crane one side, or sailing round the island, the dyke round the club is 20 to 30 foot wide, has 4 90 degree corners and a ten foot high foot bridge. Difficult in a 40 foot yacht.

 

[dogwatch]

Sure. But at regattas, not all RCs are interested in having that discussion.

Not all class associations want to have it either. In my days of helping to run one, we never instigated such a conversation, nor were we asked.

 

[knh555]

Not all class associations want to have it either. In my days of helping to run one, we never instigated such a conversation, nor were we asked.

So we have a discussion here, but even that annoys some people .