Do Libertarians Still Exist?

Fah Kiew Tu

Curmudgeon, First Rank
9,624
3,032
Tasmania, Australia
Not quite.

I will say I aspire to both Libertarian, and Anarchist ideals, while accepting that they cannot be achieved in this very imperfect world. For either to work would require a level of knowledge and understanding across all of society that is realisticually beyond what is possible for anyone.

A benevolent libertatian doesn't want the society posited in Atlas Shrugged. Rather, they would like a society where everyone has perfect knowledge of what is required by all facets of society, and chooses to contribute accordingly. So it's where the far right Libertarian meets the far left Anarchist - both would like a society where there is no compusion on people to act, but rather people act based on their belief that it is the right thing to do.

As an example, my inner Libertarian despises Jeff Bezos, whilst admiring Bill Gates. Gates built a vast fortune by selling something (mostly) new and valuable, whilst treating all his employees well. Microsoft has always been a great place to work, and employees do well financially whilst doing a jobe they enjoy. Bezos has simply driven cost out of a distribution network by exploiting his workers and a market position. Likewise Musk with Tesla, which has only survived based on government subsidies - a lot of money has flown from the pockets of a lot of people into Musks bank accounts.

The Libertarian view I aspire to does say that some people will have more than others - due to both luck and effort. But it also says that those with more will contribute more, however they will contribute as they choose. For instance, I would like to fund the police to protect life and property, but would not give them a cent to police drug use. I'd fund preventative medicine through the GP network but not heroic surgery to prolong life. I'd want all lawyers to get minimum wage only - our legal system is a parasite that mostly supports the rich. Other Libertarians would have other views, and hopefully it would result in a society in balance.

But to achieve all this - and to make resource decisions that support this philisophy - I would need to have a deep understanding of both needs in EVERY area, and real time funding. I concede this isn't possible, so I cannot be a libertarian.

I don't believe that everyone else is capable of this either, so nor can I be an anarchist. (plus I admit I'm too selfish to be live in anarchy)
Ever read Heinlein's 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'? I suspect the answer is yes...

FKT

 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
61,268
1,673
Punta Gorda FL
Doug seems to have forgotten the answer, if he indeed ever learned it, but it's Justin Amash and, just like any Trumpublican, he voted to impeach Trump.
Amash voted for impeachment both times, the first time as an independent and the second as a Libertarian. He ran as and was elected as a Republican. He didn't stand for re-election as a Libertarian.
You've repeatedly pointed out that Libertarian = Fakebertarian = Trumpublican.

So your view is that Trumpublicans vote to impeach Trump?

And the Hon. Rand Paul, who keeps insisting he's a Libertarian when he's an eager trumpalo Republican?

Amash voting for impeachment isn't the ringing endorsement Tom thinks it is. Both impeachment cases were iron clad to any but a trumpalo.

- DSK
Rand Paul doesn't insist he's a libertarian, nor would that be particularly credible. Aside from opposing the Reagan/Biden drug war looting program, he doesn't do much to please libertarians. It's just about impossible to find a TeamR Senator who votes with Trump less often, so I guess all the ones you don't mention are even more eager.

As for Amash, did you learn about his impeachment vote in this thread or when you asked me about it? Your "any but a Trumpalo" comment suggests you think he's not one, but I thought you agreed with Olsonists central idea that Libertarian = Fakebertarian = Trumpublican?

"Never a fan of @justinamash, a total lightweight who opposes me and some of our great Republican ideas and policies just for the sake of getting his name out there through controversy," Trump said on Twitter.
Trump seems smarter than both of you, being able to correctly identify an opponent.

 

Se7en

Super Anarchist
1,234
461
Melbourne
Ever read Heinlein's 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'? I suspect the answer is yes...

FKT
I'm embarrased to say I got into Heinlein via Starship Troopers. And was surprised to discover the book had a little more depth than the film... Then I made the mistake of listening to SiaSL as an audio book as I drove the kids up skiing :)

I prefer Vonnegut in that genre, but I rate Heinlein pretty highly so went through all of his stuff. I clearly have no original thoughts...

 

Steam Flyer

Super Anarchist
41,126
8,069
Eastern NC
quod umbra said:
Tom, Tom, Tom, hate to beat this drum (sorry, it is early in the morning and I have to remove the tile in the upstairs bath, so I am procrastinating.) the fact that the authoritarians among us think libertarianism is some sort of false flag or an affront to society should come as no surprise sir.
I think the only real question regarding those who support authoritarianism is, do they seek to control others or seek to be controlled by others?

As for whether or not Rand Paul is a libertarian, I have come to realize it is a very big tent of differing folks who just want government to leave them alone!
After it fixes the road by their house

- DSK

 

jocal505

moderate, informed, ex-gunowner
14,218
283
near Seattle, Wa
Integrity problems, they say.


Donors and board members leave


Influential Koch network rocked by an alleged affair scandal, donor departures and a discrimination lawsuit (msn.com)

With Phillips gone, there remain only two board members listed on the 501(c)(4) nonprofit group's website, including Mark Holden, who is listed as chairman. Their CEO, Emily Seidel, is also a member of the board. AFP's 2020 990 tax disclosure lists at least six board members prior to the resignations.

In an internal announcement late last year, which has gone previously unreported, the organization said that two board members resigned from AFP's board. Frayda Levy, one of the board members who resigned, had been listed as the board's chair on previous tax disclosure forms. Jim Miller, who has ties to the Koch-backed Citizens for a Sound Economy, also resigned from the AFP board.

The announcement said that Levy would continue as a donor partner and active participant in AFP's New Jersey branch.

Several major donors have stepped away from the group as it has adjusted its political messaging during the administration of former President Donald Trump.

AFP has been backed by Koch and Republican-leaning donors for more than 15 years.

Its 990 tax filing for 2020 shows the group raised just over $58 million that year, and had net assets of about $3 million by the end of it. AFP, like other similar nonprofits, does not publicly disclose the names of their donors. It finished with over $64 million in revenue compared to the over $54 million it received in 2019.

 

Olsonist

Disgusting Liberal Elitist
28,080
3,480
New Oak City
You've repeatedly pointed out that Libertarian = Fakebertarian = Trumpublican.

So your view is that Trumpublicans vote to impeach Trump?

Rand Paul doesn't insist he's a libertarian, nor would that be particularly credible. Aside from opposing the Reagan/Biden drug war looting program, he doesn't do much to please libertarians. It's just about impossible to find a TeamR Senator who votes with Trump less often, so I guess all the ones you don't mention are even more eager.

As for Amash, did you learn about his impeachment vote in this thread or when you asked me about it? Your "any but a Trumpalo" comment suggests you think he's not one, but I thought you agreed with Olsonists central idea that Libertarian = Fakebertarian = Trumpublican?

Trump seems smarter than both of you, being able to correctly identify an opponent.
Yeah, I do think of the Bob Barrs, Gary Johnsons and Ron Pauls as Fakebertarians. Barr was a Clinton impeachment manager and became a Shitstain supporter. In between he was the Libertarian candidate for President. Gary Johnson, we've been over this, put people in prison for drugs and somehow found virginity after office. Ron Paul was a messenger boy for Shitstain to Putin. I think it's more important to pay a price and get things done than to just say pretty things which brings me to Thank you, President Biden, for getting us the fuck out of Afghanistan. Biden paid a price and got something done. And no, your boy Shitstain did dick all to get us out. He paid no price.

I don't hate Amash but I do completely disagree with him. He's no libertarian on the issues but I admire him for in fact seeing evil and paying a price to resist it. He's basically Lynne Cheney but for leaving the GOP.

Rand Paul is like his father an opportunistic piece of shit. He'll say pretty things about libertarianism and you'll swoon. No, I don't see libertarian as a badge of honor because I've heard this for decades from Tea Partayers and Trumpers and neoconservatives and Contract With Americans and Reaganauts and .... It gets old.

Shitstain seems smarter than you as well, being able to correctly identify an, nod nod wink wink, ally. His weakness is his ability to piss off his supporters, like the deeply principled Bob Barr. But they'll come around. You'll come around. You always do.

I'll leave you with this. You should adhere less to an aspirational political philosophy and instead contemplate potholes and sewerage.

 

El Borracho

Sam’s friend
6,345
2,383
Pacific Rim
Not quite.

I will say I aspire to both Libertarian, and Anarchist ideals, while accepting that they cannot be achieved in this very imperfect world. For either to work would require a level of knowledge and understanding across all of society that is realisticually beyond what is possible for anyone.
One advantage of Libertarianism is that it can indeed be tested by one or a few adherents. While socialism can only be tested in much larger groups. So you may have your requirements mixed up. A "level of knowledge and understanding across all of society" is essentially the definition of socialism. 

Nothing about socialism preclude you from conducting a (certain to fail) libertarian experiment. Move some isolated place (Waco, Alaska, Philippines...) away from the attractive nuisances of nascent socialism in the USA and do your thing. Good luck. Don't drive or walk on the shoulder of the highway to get there. And not on private property either. Both are socialism.

What tenet of libertarianism causes the dreamers to foist their crazy on others? 

 

jzk

Super Anarchist
11,704
325
One advantage of Libertarianism is that it can indeed be tested by one or a few adherents. While socialism can only be tested in much larger groups. So you may have your requirements mixed up. A "level of knowledge and understanding across all of society" is essentially the definition of socialism. 

Nothing about socialism preclude you from conducting a (certain to fail) libertarian experiment. Move some isolated place (Waco, Alaska, Philippines...) away from the attractive nuisances of nascent socialism in the USA and do your thing. Good luck. Don't drive or walk on the shoulder of the highway to get there. And not on private property either. Both are socialism.

What tenet of libertarianism causes the dreamers to foist their crazy on others? 
If you want free college and healthcare, you could just form a group, tax each other, and hand out free shit all day long.

Why don't you do that?

Because you need other people's money.

 

Olsonist

Disgusting Liberal Elitist
28,080
3,480
New Oak City
If you want free college and healthcare, you could just form a group, tax each other, and hand out free shit all day long.

Why don't you do that?

Because you need other people's money.
That 'logic' didn't prevent the Iraq and Afghanistan wars from getting 'paid' for by W.

 

El Borracho

Sam’s friend
6,345
2,383
Pacific Rim
If you want free college and healthcare, you could just form a group, tax each other, and hand out free shit all day long.

Why don't you do that?

Because you need other people's money.
We progressives are trying. That "group" is "humanity". Nobody with a "level of knowledge and understanding across all of society" believes those things are "free."

 

Ishmael

Granfallooner
49,521
10,243
Fuctifino
What tenet of libertarianism causes the dreamers to foist their crazy on others? 
From real-world examples, I'd say it's the conviction of innate superiority over others. I suspect the Venn diagram of libertarians and Dunning-Kruger specimens has quite an overlap.

 

Saorsa

Super Anarchist
36,776
421
I know PA will always have Tom, but outside of him, are there any more?

The Republican Party is currently the absolute worst nightmare I can imagine for an actual libertarian, yet I have seen nothing at all in the wider media world from them or about them?

Did they all explode in a cloud of cognitive dissonance or ?????????
Sure, but around here they are called republicans but the fuckwits.

 

Saorsa

Super Anarchist
36,776
421
From real-world examples, I'd say it's the conviction of innate superiority over others. I suspect the Venn diagram of libertarians and Dunning-Kruger specimens has quite an overlap.
1633271525-20211003.png


 

Se7en

Super Anarchist
1,234
461
Melbourne
One advantage of Libertarianism is that it can indeed be tested by one or a few adherents. While socialism can only be tested in much larger groups. So you may have your requirements mixed up. A "level of knowledge and understanding across all of society" is essentially the definition of socialism. 

And not on private property either. Both are socialism.
We may be talking at cross purposes here. I was talking about libertarianism as a philosophy for society to follow, not as a label for RWNJ to adopt as an excuse for their selfishness. I tried to make it clear that my vision of libertarainism is one where externalities cannot be ignored. The point of stating the requirement for knowledge is so that a libertarian can direct their own resources where needed, not just ignore the need. John Galt running away and creating a new society that benefits from all the knowlege and resources of the current world is not what I'm espousing. (Who is John Galt?)

Private property being socialism is a new idea to me. How do you reconcile that with Kant's view that all property is theft? Does this mean that the leftist view is that socialism is theft?

The problem with socialism and libertarianism is almost the same. While Milo Minderbender was saying that 'everyone has a share', the reality was that Milo had the only share that mattered. Not sure if that is socialism or libertarianism in it's failure.

 

SloopJonB

Super Anarchist
65,895
10,948
Great Wet North
The fundamental and inescapable failing of Libertarianism as a philosophy as it is with Communism, Fabianism and all the rest of the "isms" is that it fails to take human nature into account.

They all require all people to be fundamentally unselfish, fair. reasonable. good and decent.

You know, all those qualities where the human race regularly comes up short.

 

BeSafe

Super Anarchist
7,830
1,182
Personally, I thought we were talking about the actual party.

 
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