Eco Clipper (from the FP)

Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,288
5,217
Canada
Yeah sort of. But globalization does mean general standard of living has increased. Lower wages in China mean a big screen TV in every living room at an affordable price in N.America. You're happy to get consumer goods cheaper and China is happy to make them.

Right now Brazil ships iron ore to China because they can mine it cheap and deliver by ship at about the same price as high labour cost/shorter shipping route Australia.

I do hope the pandemic means that people start thinking about bringing critical manufacturing back in-country. Canada is setting up a new vaccine R&D and production facility in Quebec for the next election pandemic. 

And I try to buy local instead of Amazon when possible. I walked out of my apartment corridor yesterday and 3 doors (out of 12) had Amazon packages in front of them. Gives you an idea of the scale of the 8000 lb gorilla it has become...

 
Sailing cargo ships in the 21st century are like flying car designs—always just 5 years away, and somehow nobody ever talks about the obvious and overwhelming issues.  Just imagine rush hour in a major city with tens of thousands of flying cars.  At least the 11 pm news footage would be spectacular....

 

Fiji Bitter

I love Fiji Bitter
4,470
1,300
In the wild.
Millenium Falcon rig maybe. This rig? NFW.


Exacly, like this one, from the developers of the Dyna rig. A far more down to earth project that nevertheless is still vaporware, AFAIK.

riu-orig_ecoliner-1453809980.jpg

This is a proven rig concept, not only on the Maltese Falcon, but also on the Monster Yacht A.

Don't know what the carbon footprint of the 'spars' would be, or the carbon fiber in this case.

https://www.dykstra-na.nl/designs/wasp-ecoliner/

 

Jackett

Member
137
76
UK
Do you have any ideas of how many TONS of hydrocarbon a freighter burns in one ocean crossing?

So granted, it is not that simple; there is at least one order of magnitude between the hauling capacity of a modern freighter and any sailing freigther seen in vaporware in the past few years. So one crossing from a freighter is equivalent to at least 10 crossing with a sailing freighter? More? Less?

But still, the amount of nasty dirty fuel burnt by maritime transport is mind boggling.
I know exactly how much fuel they use. They also carry mind boggling large amounts of cargo, which this 'clipper ship' proposal wouldn't.

I wasn't entirely open with my level of knowledge in this regards. I'm a Ports and Harbours engineer, and part of my team specialises in the whole life carbon footprint of marine transport systems, working with the likes of ABP, DP world etc. to help them meet their environmental targets.

The small size of most 'pure sail' cargo concepts mean that they perform awfully purely because of the small amount of cargo they can carry and the larger crews then normally require, even with a high level of automation (a person has a huge carbon footprint). Large 'sail assist' vessels make sense, where using rigid wingsails or similar, which need little crew input. A conventional sailing vessel struggles to come close to the carbon footprint efficiency of a modern container ship.

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
2,794
576
Evanston
The small size of most 'pure sail' cargo concepts mean that they perform awfully purely because of the small amount of cargo they can carry and the larger crews then normally require, even with a high level of automation (a person has a huge carbon footprint).
When you look at the carbon footprint of a person do you look at the differential between that person staying ashore and the same person working the boat, or the total footprint of the person on the boat.

I'm a bit puzzled by the huge carbon footprint for the person.

 

Laurent

Super Anarchist
2,264
1,880
Houston
I know exactly how much fuel they use. They also carry mind boggling large amounts of cargo, which this 'clipper ship' proposal wouldn't.

I wasn't entirely open with my level of knowledge in this regards. I'm a Ports and Harbours engineer, and part of my team specialises in the whole life carbon footprint of marine transport systems, working with the likes of ABP, DP world etc. to help them meet their environmental targets.

The small size of most 'pure sail' cargo concepts mean that they perform awfully purely because of the small amount of cargo they can carry and the larger crews then normally require, even with a high level of automation (a person has a huge carbon footprint). Large 'sail assist' vessels make sense, where using rigid wingsails or similar, which need little crew input. A conventional sailing vessel struggles to come close to the carbon footprint efficiency of a modern container ship.
So actually, we mostly agree...

Freighters burn a shitload of nasty fuel but their hauling capacity is 500 to 1000 times the capacity of a sailing freighter... Zonker's figures in his post above corrected my initial assumptions and confirmed my suspiscions that economy of scale are in favor of the large current freighters...

So sail assisted is the only impactful improvement in the foreseable future.

But not the romantic clipper rigs approach, for sure...

 

harryproa

Anarchist
861
109
Bigger is not always the solution.  Sometimes it exacerbates the problem.  For example, some remote Pacific villages sole transport is a Govt subsidised diesel powered ship every 3 months.  Any more often and it is even less economically viable.  These ships are often too big to enter the lagoons so motor back and forth outside the reef while petrol powered skiffs visit the beach to load/unload the freight which is handled multiple times between beach and ship hold.  

A solution is the 24m/80' Harryproa cargo ferry which I spent 5 years trying to sell with spreadsheets, presentations, research papers and meetings.  With limited success.  Everyone (rightly) wanted to see one operating.   I decided to build a prototype, which should be launched by year end (got the masts up and beams on this week), prior to sailing it to Fiji for a couple of test routes.  

With only 2 crew, near zero operating costs and freight carried in deck boxes (mini shipping containers, to be made from locally collected recycled plastic) a fleet of cargo proas will perhaps help stop the exodus from the villages to the cities and reduce CO2 emissions and imports of expensive fuel.   

Cost so far is $AUS40,000/$US30,000 and 10 months relatively low effort (everything is infused fibreglass or carbon with no fairing) work for a pair of old farts, plus occasional student help  as University of Queensland supplied a shed partly in return for us giving engineering students some real life composite experience.     Another 40 grand will get it to Fiji ready to start hauling freight.   If successful, there will be a boat building business set up using local labour and a shipping line to service the remote villages.   If successful, these business models will be applied in other countries.  

Cargo proa sketch.png

 

kent_island_sailor

Super Anarchist
26,938
4,901
Kent Island!
tbrown said:
Great to know that! I hope you succeeded and so best of luck in advance. It seems you are into this for many time and you might had expense ups and downs and come out of it strong. I just had a question that what I need to do or have to setup my boat building business? Do  I also need follow Delaware business entity search for naming my boat building business.  Do advice me. 
Show us some tits, fuck off, and BUY AN AD!

 

harryproa

Anarchist
861
109
Now on it's way to Fiji.  see http://harryproa.com/?p=3788

Bigger is not always the solution.  Sometimes it exacerbates the problem.  For example, some remote Pacific villages sole transport is a Govt subsidised diesel powered ship every 3 months.  Any more often and it is even less economically viable.  These ships are often too big to enter the lagoons so motor back and forth outside the reef while petrol powered skiffs visit the beach to load/unload the freight which is handled multiple times between beach and ship hold.  

A solution is the 24m/80' Harryproa cargo ferry which I spent 5 years trying to sell with spreadsheets, presentations, research papers and meetings.  With limited success.  Everyone (rightly) wanted to see one operating.   I decided to build a prototype, which should be launched by year end (got the masts up and beams on this week), prior to sailing it to Fiji for a couple of test routes.  

With only 2 crew, near zero operating costs and freight carried in deck boxes (mini shipping containers, to be made from locally collected recycled plastic) a fleet of cargo proas will perhaps help stop the exodus from the villages to the cities and reduce CO2 emissions and imports of expensive fuel.   

Cost so far is $AUS40,000/$US30,000 and 10 months relatively low effort (everything is infused fibreglass or carbon with no fairing) work for a pair of old farts, plus occasional student help  as University of Queensland supplied a shed partly in return for us giving engineering students some real life composite experience.     Another 40 grand will get it to Fiji ready to start hauling freight.   If successful, there will be a boat building business set up using local labour and a shipping line to service the remote villages.   If successful, these business models will be applied in other countries.  

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