Electronic Foil Control Systems.

[atypicalguy]

My control system does pretty much what you describe as crazy Phil. Really it is not that far fetched. The materials are plenty strong enough to handle it. I have my share of problems but the behavior you describe is readily achievable.

is it faster?

I lose speed in the maneuvers, as it takes me a bit longer to get foiling again. This loss is amplified in marginal foiling conditions. So for now it is hard to see how I would keep up around a course. Gybing is also giving me fits in the lumps, for complicated reasons. But in a straight line it seems more slippery than my old flapped mainfoil - it just goes faster and faster where the other one seemed to hit a limit. So for now I continue to wear my rose colored glasses.

Honestly it is hard to see any of these technical developments making large enough speed differences to make up for one bad tack at the pointy end of the fleet. I mean, if you could go two knots faster around the course it would be significant, but that would be pretty hard to achieve I think.

 

[Phil S]

Karl,

I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

 

[atypicalguy]

Karl,I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

Steel pin at the hull exit, wand pulls aft on the top of the foil. Some bearings in the appropriate places.

 

[Mal Smith]

Karl,I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

Steel pin at the hull exit, wand pulls aft on the top of the foil. Some bearings in the appropriate places.

Got some photo's, or is it secret? I can't imagine how you can get the power to control that without a very large wand with some sort of paddle on the end. And I imagine that the location of the pin might be critical.

 

[atypicalguy]

Karl,I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

Steel pin at the hull exit, wand pulls aft on the top of the foil. Some bearings in the appropriate places.

Got some photo's, or is it secret? I can't imagine how you can get the power to control that without a very large wand with some sort of paddle on the end. And I imagine that the location of the pin might be critical.

Yes there are a few details to sort out design-wise. Too busy making stuff to take many photos.

 

[atypicalguy]

Karl,I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

Steel pin at the hull exit, wand pulls aft on the top of the foil. Some bearings in the appropriate places.

Got some photo's, or is it secret? I can't imagine how you can get the power to control that without a very large wand with some sort of paddle on the end. And I imagine that the location of the pin might be critical.

An old shot but you get the idea. Yes one doesn't stick the foil together willy nilly - little changes make big differences.

 

[Enterprising]

clive, be honest here, you re not alone in the project.

I do believe roger angell might have had a hand in getting this electronic foiling thing going and you 2 are working as a team.

for any unbelievers here, the technology is amazing, mainly through its simplicity. boat does this, foils do that..... cut out the sailor needing to react the technology does it all, and it is a lot less complex than a tacticat, so why should it be illegal?

I have had the pleasure of seeing a maiden flight on an inlnd water of an electronically foiling moth. shortly followed by a maiden crash of the same said moth.

 

[atypicalguy]

clive, be honest here, you re not alone in the project.
I do believe roger angell might have had a hand in getting this electronic foiling thing going and you 2 are working as a team.

for any unbelievers here, the technology is amazing, mainly through its simplicity. boat does this, foils do that..... cut out the sailor needing to react the technology does it all, and it is a lot less complex than a tacticat, so why should it be illegal?

I have had the pleasure of seeing a maiden flight on an inlnd water of an electronically foiling moth. shortly followed by a maiden crash of the same said moth.

Just another area of expertise to add for those seeking to build this stuff: you can buy the sensors readily enough but have fun designing circuits to monitor the outputs and do something with them. If that bit were easier everyone would do it. Someone could easily make money providing control systems for such craft but I expect they would add a lot of cost to an already expensive boat.

 

[Phil S]

"for any unbelievers here, the technology is amazing, mainly through its simplicity. boat does this, foils do that..... cut out the sailor needing to react the technology does it all, and it is a lot less complex than a tacticat, so why should it be illegal?"

It is illegal because that is the rules, just like the other rules which prevent a moth having more than 8sq m of sail and not being longer than 11 ft. Actually its more basic than that as its part of the ISAF rules of sailing which also say its illegal to be propelled by a motor and no one except the billionaires with 100ft super maxies disagree with that one.

And even if the present example is simple, if it was allowed it would be no time before someone made a better, more complex and much more expensive one which of course would also be legal. And once everyone spent up big on that one along comes an even better one at even greater cost. It would never stop, unless it never gets a start. Thats why its banned.

And for the doubters a properly set up mechanical wand system as used on top moths also works fully automatically without skipper input, mechanical technology does it all to.

 

[clivee1]

clive, be honest here, you re not alone in the project.
I do believe roger angell might have had a hand in getting this electronic foiling thing going and you 2 are working as a team.

for any unbelievers here, the technology is amazing, mainly through its simplicity. boat does this, foils do that..... cut out the sailor needing to react the technology does it all, and it is a lot less complex than a tacticat, so why should it be illegal?

I have had the pleasure of seeing a maiden flight on an inlnd water of an electronically foiling moth. shortly followed by a maiden crash of the same said moth.

Yes Roger is very involved in this project, It has never been any secret.

The electronics are mine, that is what I do. The ideas and implementation are shared.

We are very aware that this is banned from the Moth class. We are not doing this because we want to change the Moth class, or as a future commercial venture. There are far easier ways to make a living.

We are doing it because we find it a fascinating project and believe that it will give us the boats that we want to sail.♦

 

[clivee1]

And for the doubters a properly set up mechanical wand system as used on top moths also works fully automatically without skipper input, mechanical technology does it all to.

I am sure that the mechanical self steering systems used in the original 1969 Golden Globe race worked well and allowed them to get round the planet but you will not find many mechanical auto helms on a current Vendee competitor.

There are a lot of things that electronics can do much much cheaper and better than the mechanical alternative.

Clive

 

[Phil S]

and another fly by wire (aparently badly maintained) Airbus tragicly crashed today.

At least I can see and understand what is needing maintenance on my mechanical wand.

 

[dougculnane]

Cheap shot Phil, so here is another: I have a fly by wire car that was cheaper to buy than my Moth.

I think that the fly by wire system need to have time to develop and then we can see if it is something we want to sail.

Interesting stuff but where is the blog you tube videos etc.. Come on guys if you are going to do it, do it properly.

 

[clivee1]

I think that the fly by wire system need to have time to develop and then we can see if it is something we want to sail.Interesting stuff but where is the blog you tube videos etc.. Come on guys if you are going to do it, do it properly.

Would rather spend my time working on than shouting about it.

 

[Doug Lord]

And for the doubters a properly set up mechanical wand system as used on top moths also works fully automatically without skipper input, mechanical technology does it all to.

---------------------------

Bull! The modern wand invented in the 70's and refined by Brafield and Ilett and now others has always had drawbacks including drag and weight-among others.

There are more people working on electronic foil controls besides Clive. Dr. Sam is developing a wand-less system that will be extraordinary-less drag, less weight simpler and more reliable!

He and I talked a lot about it years ago and I helped him find servos that would do the job on the 18' Osprey. He has a system that is extremely advanced.

Phil, foiling is a lot bigger than the Moth and though the early Moth pioneers have made extraordinary contributions to foiling technology the people working on making monofoiling or multifoiling cheaper, simpler and more reliable with electronic foil controls are the modern pioneers and will lead the way to making foiling more popular, easy and fun!

 

[SimonN]

And for the doubters a properly set up mechanical wand system as used on top moths also works fully automatically without skipper input, mechanical technology does it all to.

---------------------------

Bull! The modern wand invented in the 70's and refined by Brafield and Ilett and now others has always had drawbacks including drag and weight-among others.

Stope talking out of your rear, yet again. The wand system on a modern Moth is weighed in grams. I am guessing but I suspect the whole thing cannot weigh more than 200grams. As for the drag, just how much do you think we are talking about? While we all acknowledge there is a very small amount of drag, it really doesn't make a noticable difference to speed.
If you stopped looking at everything in theory and actuilally went sailing, you would find out what is important and what isn't.

This isn't to say that Clive's project isn't interesting and as Clive himself says, he is doing it because it is interesting.

However, doug, if you really want to learn something from Clive, read what he said

Would rather spend my time working on than shouting about it.

Shame you cannot adopt the same principal. If you did, you might have a boat finished (or should that be started )

 

[Doug Lord]

This isn't to say that Clive's project isn't interesting and as Clive himself says, he is doing it because it is interesting.

================================

You don't don't read too well. Clive said: " We are doing it because we find it a fascinating project and believe that it will give us the boats that we want to sail."

That is the key! That's why Bradfield is doing it . And there are others, as well, working on electronic flight control. Good luck to them all.....

 

[Mal Smith]

Karl,I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

Steel pin at the hull exit, wand pulls aft on the top of the foil. Some bearings in the appropriate places.

Got some photo's, or is it secret? I can't imagine how you can get the power to control that without a very large wand with some sort of paddle on the end. And I imagine that the location of the pin might be critical.

An old shot but you get the idea. Yes one doesn't stick the foil together willy nilly - little changes make big differences.

View attachment 110766

Is there some kind of sliding bearing at the top of the fin or inside the CB case? Or do you rely on the pin as an axle to keep the fin vertical and stop the fin from rubbing on the CB case? I'm interested in what measures you have taken to reduce friction.

 

[atypicalguy]

Karl,I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

Steel pin at the hull exit, wand pulls aft on the top of the foil. Some bearings in the appropriate places.

Got some photo's, or is it secret? I can't imagine how you can get the power to control that without a very large wand with some sort of paddle on the end. And I imagine that the location of the pin might be critical.

An old shot but you get the idea. Yes one doesn't stick the foil together willy nilly - little changes make big differences.

View attachment 110766

Is there some kind of sliding bearing at the top of the fin or inside the CB case? Or do you rely on the pin as an axle to keep the fin vertical and stop the fin from rubbing on the CB case? I'm interested in what measures you have taken to reduce friction.

Some thrust bearing/bushings on each side of the board at the pin and some wheels at the top. There is very little friction.

 

[Mal Smith]

Karl,I know you have an all moving foil working but somewhere along the bloggoshere I missed the details on how it works. Wardi had one where the foil pivoted on the bottom of the centreboard but I understand you swing the whole T foil from with in the CB case. Can you please give us an outline on what moves and where the pivots are along with how the wand provides the power to make the moves?

Phil S

Steel pin at the hull exit, wand pulls aft on the top of the foil. Some bearings in the appropriate places.

Got some photo's, or is it secret? I can't imagine how you can get the power to control that without a very large wand with some sort of paddle on the end. And I imagine that the location of the pin might be critical.

An old shot but you get the idea. Yes one doesn't stick the foil together willy nilly - little changes make big differences.

View attachment 110766

Is there some kind of sliding bearing at the top of the fin or inside the CB case? Or do you rely on the pin as an axle to keep the fin vertical and stop the fin from rubbing on the CB case? I'm interested in what measures you have taken to reduce friction.

Some thrust bearing/bushings on each side of the board at the pin and some wheels at the top. There is very little friction.

OK, I get that. Now, does the wand need to be any bigger than normal to drive the thing?