Elizabeth Warren Proposes a Wealth Tax

jzk

Super Anarchist
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Amen. You are spot on, at least in terms of my experiences.

When my younger son (now age 42) was in elementary school my wife was very active in the PTA group.  I went to all the parent-teacher meetings.  When he was in middle school my wife ran all the pizza fund-raising sales.  So over the course of the years from K through 8, she and I got to see a lot of the same kids. I cannot tell you how many times teachers (plural) said something along the lines of “I never see the parent(s) who most need to be here.”

My observation was that by the end of 3rd grade you could get a decent idea of the kids who were going to make it and those who weren’t. Now, of course, there were/are always exceptions.  A well-placed, well-timed intervention by a teacher, counselor, coach, grandparent, clergy person, etc. and a kid’s life is turned around.
If all of that is true, then the government vocational schools will be lost on that person destined since third grade to be a loser.

I know many successful people.  Many, many are self made.  Generally speaking, the successful people do things that the unsuccessful people don't do.  I know brothers where one brother can't find his way out of a paper bag, another brother is making a killing trading futures, and another running his own company.  All the same race, parents, "privileged" etc.  The difference is that two of the brothers "get it," while the other one has no clue.  And, having been well educated, I never learned any of the "get it" skills in school.  I know plenty of C students making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.  Many.  I know many "privileged" people that never worked a hard day in their life.  And they have no idea how.  I have no time for those people  

Now, if you want to have volunteer based community business coaching programs or the like, I would be all for that.  

Over my life, I have had hundreds and hundreds of people work for me.  Some come every day like clockwork.  Their attendance is so routine that you almost forget all about them.  Others can't seem to find their way to work on time ever.  Was it the extra money from daddy that made them come in on time?  Some employees always do extra.  Some always complain.  Which do you suppose are more productive?  Which have a better chance of success?  

Some employees I would be screwed with out.  I give them extra money often.  Others would be saving me a lot of trouble if they would just quit.  Is it because I "like" one and not the other?  Is it because of their skin color, gender, or the wealth of their parents?

 

jzk

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Perhaps, but we aren't really talking about you, right? The question is, can the average person raised in a broken home with poor dental care, and limited education also find 100 paths to financial independence and success. The evidence says no. Much of what a person is, and therefor what they can become, is baked in before they hit HS. For that matter, much of it before they leave Kindergarten. Perhaps, if they had the same knowledge as you, the same parents as you, and went to the same schools as you, they could simply make decisions as you do and be fine. It is not a physical or biological limitation, but it is also much more complicated and difficult than simply insisting people make better decisions. Humans learn how to make decisions, they are not born with the capacity to navigate a very unnatural set of societal rules and expectations without anyone showing them the way. Not to mention that finances do typically play a large role in what types of experiences children are exposed to, which in turn affects the breadth of opportunity they can reasonably pursue and succeed at as adults.

It is complicated. There are no quick fixes, only long ones that take decades to really take hold. It is why we continually fail to see where past actions have benefited or hurt the cause, because we keep looking at very small time slices. We are far too impatient at the moment to solve our most difficult problems, and it is after all very easy and quick to simply find fault with some other team's ideas. 
I am not doing anything related to my education.  I am not practicing law nor am I working as an engineer.  I sell stuff on ebay.  No one knows who I am, what color I am, anything about my parents or anything else.  To the world, I am just a listing for something that you may want or not.  

Running a business is extremely burdensome, and I can't imagine how most people even do it.  Occupancy licenses, sales tax, payroll tax, annual reports, etc. is obnoxious.  Simplifying that stuff would be a great start.  Instead of punishing big bad businesses, make it easier for that guy to start a bottom cleaning service or an oil change service.  

 

slatfatf

Super Anarchist
8,679
1,049
I am not doing anything related to my education.  I am not practicing law nor am I working as an engineer.  I sell stuff on ebay.  No one knows who I am, what color I am, anything about my parents or anything else.  To the world, I am just a listing for something that you may want or not.  

Running a business is extremely burdensome, and I can't imagine how most people even do it.  Occupancy licenses, sales tax, payroll tax, annual reports, etc. is obnoxious.  Simplifying that stuff would be a great start.  Instead of punishing big bad businesses, make it easier for that guy to start a bottom cleaning service or an oil change service.  
It is the set of experiences, the role models in one's lives, and most importantly the decision making skills one develops which helps determine one's success. Well, all that and luck, we must not forget luck. I would guess that you do benefit from much of your childhood experiences today, even if you do not actively work in a field you had trained for. 

You are correct that running a business is a giant PITA. You will not get an argument from me on that. I think it would be great if we could make it easier, and I believe we can. I just don't agree that the way to make it easier is to remove taxes, licenses, and regulations. I think we can maintain the systems and controls which benefit society, while reducing the societal costs that you note, through the intelligent application of technology. If someone could manage all of their business compliance in a single afternoon each year, I suspect that  most honest resistance to regulations would melt away. 

 

Steam Flyer

Super Anarchist
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Eastern NC
When taxes go up the rich folks leave. 

....    ...    ...
 Oh yeah?

Where are taxes really really high? New York City. Where are there more millionaires per square mile than in your neighborhood? New York City

Where did they cut top marginal tax rates so much that they couldn't afford to keep the lights on in schools? Kansas. Did all the millionaires move t Kansas? Not only but fuck no..... even JZK didn't move there.

So basically, you're pissing in the wind here. Not just wrong but obviously, stupidly, wrong. Even so, I'm guessing you're wedded to this theory and aren't going to learn better

-DSK

 

Steam Flyer

Super Anarchist
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Eastern NC
You think there is a boat out there that sails faster with some resistance?  
You need resistance for the spinnaker to fill.  If you were going the same velocity as the wind, there is none to fill the sail and it sits there like a flacid condom. I thought you were a sailor.  That means there is an optimum.  
Why am I not a bit surprised that JZK has no clue about physics, either?

Is there anybody interested in trying to explain lift/drag ratios to him? Bueller?

-DSK

 

jzk

Super Anarchist
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Why am I not a bit surprised that JZK has no clue about physics, either?

Is there anybody interested in trying to explain lift/drag ratios to him? Bueller?

-DSK
Don't tell me that you are "blooper" guy too, right?  Have you been sailing?

 

jzk

Super Anarchist
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325
Mickey Rat said:
So she took advantage of the affirmative action program to get a placement at Harvard by claiming to be an American Indian. What difference does it make now?  I think it's wonderful that she could become America's first woman of color POTUS. 
If you believe in the affirmative action "cause" then you should think she is a piece of shit for doing that, if that is what she did.

 

Laker

Super Anarchist
4,156
259
PNW
I agree that we need a government and we need taxation of some kind.  Rich people already carry society in the amount that they contribute.  How about saying thank you instead of thinking how to best spend their money that  you think they don't care about.  If some one is contributing so much that we are talking about their 10,000,000th dollar, then they already paid far more than their "fair share."

Instead, look to the poor to see how to encourage them to go out and be all they can be.  Or at least stop interfering with them doing such.
Are you seriously promoting an incomeocracy?  Are you placing one's worth on the amount that they earn, inherit or steal?  I think you have blown your arguments out your ass.

 

Laker

Super Anarchist
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259
PNW
It is the set of experiences, the role models in one's lives, and most importantly the decision making skills one develops which helps determine one's success. Well, all that and luck, we must not forget luck. I would guess that you do benefit from much of your childhood experiences today, even if you do not actively work in a field you had trained for. 

You are correct that running a business is a giant PITA. You will not get an argument from me on that. I think it would be great if we could make it easier, and I believe we can. I just don't agree that the way to make it easier is to remove taxes, licenses, and regulations. I think we can maintain the systems and controls which benefit society, while reducing the societal costs that you note, through the intelligent application of technology. If someone could manage all of their business compliance in a single afternoon each year, I suspect that  most honest resistance to regulations would melt away. 
Noblesse Oblige

 

Ishmael

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49,323
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Are you seriously promoting an incomeocracy?  Are you placing one's worth on the amount that they earn, inherit or steal?  I think you have blown your arguments out your ass.
He's not known as the Village Idiot for nothing.

 

jzk

Super Anarchist
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325
Are you seriously promoting an incomeocracy?  Are you placing one's worth on the amount that they earn, inherit or steal?  I think you have blown your arguments out your ass.
What are you talking about?  Wealthy people pay for the majority of government.  How about a high five for them instead of constantly vilifying them?

What is a person worth?  That depends on what we are talking about.  If you are talking about how much to pay someone for their time and effort, then that is one category of worth.

 

Saorsa

Super Anarchist
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 Oh yeah?

Where are taxes really really high? New York City. Where are there more millionaires per square mile than in your neighborhood? New York City

Where did they cut top marginal tax rates so much that they couldn't afford to keep the lights on in schools? Kansas. Did all the millionaires move t Kansas? Not only but fuck no..... even JZK didn't move there.

So basically, you're pissing in the wind here. Not just wrong but obviously, stupidly, wrong. Even so, I'm guessing you're wedded to this theory and aren't going to learn better

-DSK
Tell it to Cuomo.  He's the one who sees his revenue dropping.

Nobody mentioned Kansas.  He was pissed at Florida and we have a few millionaires from NY already down here.  They just stop spending time in NY and become FL residents.

Hell, NY state doesn't even rank in the top ten for Millionaires on a per capita basis.  New Jersey comes in first there.

Here's a cut from a newsweek article  so you are are least factually wrong.

There have never been more millionaires in the world than there are today. According to the latest Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report, there are 42.2 million millionaires worldwide, a 2.3 million rise from last year.

The U.S. has been particularly adept at producing millionaires—40 percent of the people who became millionaires last year live in the U.S. There are now 1,288,000 millionaires in the U.S. alone, the most in any country, with China in second place.

But while some countries have more wealthy residents than others, the concentration disparity of millionaires is even more noticeable from city to city. Using data from Knight Frank’s 2017 Wealth Report, electronic components supplier RS Components has made a list of the cities with the most millionaires per square mile.

Geneva, in Switzerland, comes out on top, with 16,958 millionaires per square mile. According to a recent wealth report published by Capgemini, close to 1 in 20 Swiss people are millionaires, well above the global average.

The principality of Monaco has 13,400 millionaires per square mile. However, they also had a massive 1,210 Ultra-High-Net-Worth Individuals (UHNWI), whose net worth exceeds $30m, per square mile, the most of any country. Monaco has notoriously low taxes, making it a haven for the extremely wealthy.

San Francisco's Bay Area is the city in the U.S with the highest density of millionaires. New York City, Miami, Washington DC and Los Angeles also made the top fifty cities with the most millionaires per square mile.

Looking at sheer numbers without regard to city size, London comes out top with 357,200 millionaires in total. New York City has the second-most millionaires in residence, at 339,200.

 

Steam Flyer

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Eastern NC
Tell it to Cuomo.  He's the one who sees his revenue dropping.

Nobody mentioned Kansas.  He was pissed at Florida and we have a few millionaires from NY already down here.  They just stop spending time in NY and become FL residents.

Hell, NY state doesn't even rank in the top ten for Millionaires on a per capita basis.  New Jersey comes in first there.
Are you too poor to pay attention? What are you claiming here, it looked to me like you were trying to make the case that millionaires leave high tax areas in significant numbers.

It just ain't so, by your own statements. Is New Jersey a low-tax state?

And of course you didn't mention Kansas, most trickle-down believers would rather pretend that the great Kansas experiment in cutting taxes into bankruptcy never happened.

But did millionaires move to Kansas? No

Do millionaires move to Florida? Sure. Is that statistically significant enough to make it a good basis for tax policy? Maybe- it's true that the lack of income tax and the reliance on sales tax is regressive, which of course favors the wealthy. Maybe this is where Kansas fucked up?

-DSK

 
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jzk

Super Anarchist
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Are you too poor to pay attention? What are you claiming here, it looked to me like you were trying to make the case that millionaires leave high tax areas in significant numbers.

It just ain't so, by your own statements. Is New Jersey a low-tax state?

And of course you didn't mention Kansas, most trickle-down believers would rather pretend that the great Kansas experiment in cutting taxes into bankruptcy never happened.

But did millionaires move to Kansas? No

Do millionaires move to Florida? Sure. Is that statistically significant enough to make it a good basis for tax policy? Maybe- it's true that the lack of income tax and the reliance on sales tax is regressive, which of course favors the wealthy. Maybe this is where Kansas fucked up?

-DSK
It looks like some clown believes that you can use the results of an entire regional economy to prove that a single input was the cause.  

 

Ishmael

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49,323
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Are you too poor to pay attention? What are you claiming here, it looked to me like you were trying to make the case that millionaires leave high tax areas in significant numbers.

It just ain't so, by your own statements. Is New Jersey a low-tax state?

And of course you didn't mention Kansas, most trickle-down believers would rather pretend that the great Kansas experiment in cutting taxes into bankruptcy never happened.

But did millionaires move to Kansas? No

Do millionaires move to Florida? Sure. Is that statistically significant enough to make it a good basis for tax policy? Maybe- it's true that the lack of income tax and the reliance on sales tax is regressive, which of course favors the wealthy. Maybe this is where Kansas fucked up?

-DSK
Kansas just needs to move a thousand miles south, would fix a lot of their problems.

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
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Who in this discussion advocates the death of poor people?

Liberal elitists want poor people to remain poor so that they need to be taken care of by liberal elitists.  Or they get cush government jobs where they are paid far above their value.

My view says that all of those poor people sitting around despairing that they will never have a future can go out and make the most of their lives and be wealthy if that is what they want.  If most people in this forum don't believe it is possible, how the fuck are they supposed to believe it?  If they don't believe it, they will never do it.

Laker would probably council any eager wannabee entrepreneur that it is not possible.  Capital will just flow in and crush you.

As a selfish business owner, having large groups of unproductive people on the public dime benefits me in no way.  Having them all being productive citizens earning their way provides me a whole lot more potential customers.  And if some become competitors, so be it.  More business for us to share anyway.
Read what I wrote again...real slow like. 

 The problem isn't that you are a selfish business owner, it's that you suffer from the fallacy of centrality of self. You imagine that since you can't see how it benefits you it could benefit no other business person. It's a common problem among adolescents, and particularly with Ayn Rand.

 She got to people mostly during that period of their lives, largely because that crap appeals primarily to those who suffer from it. She glorified that condition.     

 
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