Emirates Team New Zealand.

[Forourselves]

I suspect ETNZ's foils were optimised for speed (less drag), helped by experience they gained in AC35 on how to control the boat with precision whilst using them.

I agree. I also think this was the case in Bermuda. @Stingray~ keeps going on about ETNZ optimising for light winds, but I don't think they were. I think ETNZ optimised in Bermuda, as well as Auckland for speed. Speed was the main focus in Bermuda and Auckland. The issue was, ETNZ had to develop systems to help them learn how to handle the foils they had. This was evident in both the development of the AC50 and the AC75.

 

[dullers]

To be fair the boat with the worst communication was AM, in my “opinion” I felt they had a fast boat, but sailed it poorly. I’d take Ben any day over Dean Barker.  As for criticism I’ve got a lot of negative things to say about AM and how they sailed the boat.  But I don’t care about AM but do care about Ineos. I’m also a UK citizen so why wouldn’t I want them to do well. 

Ben has now had two goes at the cup and came up short. It’s time to let someone else manage the team  leaving Ben at the Helm. 

I think the last part holds merit.  We can only guess if his other rolls hindered his steering.

 

[MaxHugen]

I agree. I also think this was the case in Bermuda. @Stingray~ keeps going on about ETNZ optimising for light winds, but I don't think they were. I think ETNZ optimised in Bermuda, as well as Auckland for speed. Speed was the main focus in Bermuda and Auckland. The issue was, ETNZ had to develop systems to help them learn how to handle the foils they had. This was evident in both the development of the AC50 and the AC75.

Yep!  I recall someone (?) from ETNZ saying they were up to the 7th or 8th iteration of the flight controller, for example.  This is not easy.  As an ex-computer program developer, I'd look at  a number of ways to help manage certain maneuvers, together with the flight controller. 

For example, for a flight controller to manage a gybe, there might be a sequence like this:

1. Activate windward foil down, to same cant as leeward foil, but with zero lift flap preset.
   
2. Switch "mode" to transfer lift between the foils
   
3. Transfer lift during maneuver, even to the degree of extra lift to leeward plus negative lift to windward
   
4. Activate windward foil up to preset position, simultaneously adjusting lift to 100% leeward foil
   
5. Resume normal lift (flying height) control
   

Considering "severe" heel, with the resulting pitch up and possibly consequences like the AM capsize, a flight controller might want a very prominent warning light to flash urgently for "pitch rise". Plus an emergency button to both immediately reduce lift on the main foil, plus increase lift from the rudder foil, to help level the boat.

Of course there are many variations of many circumstances... so with input from the flight controller, I could imagine a lot of changes to the controller in design and programming.

 

[jaysper]

We can only guess if his other rolls hindered his steering.

I think its the other way around. 

Imagine the disaster if Burling and Tuke took over the CEO role.

 

[dullers]

I think its the other way around. 

Imagine the disaster if Burling and Tuke took over the CEO role.

We know he is a good helmsman. BA has been around a bit longer than the other 2. We will have to wait 10 or more years to find out about the Kiwis. It is an age thing. Anyway sail gp coming soon. You going to watch it?

 

[dg_sailingfan]

I'm going to make a BOLD PREDICTION when it comes to Emirates Team New Zealand:

They are going to win every single America's Cup that is contested in Foiling Boats.

They introduced Foiling in the lead up to AC34 and although they lost that Cup Match by the skin of their teeth everyone is playing catch to the Kiwis with their Foiling Technology ever since for sort of 8 years now.

They have some kind of Advantage when it comes to "Foiling Boats" IMO.

 

[jaysper]

We know he is a good helmsman. BA has been around a bit longer than the other 2. We will have to wait 10 or more years to find out about the Kiwis. It is an age thing. Anyway sail gp coming soon. You going to watch it?

Yup, prolly not live tho.

I think calling BA a good helmsman is a pretty serious understatement.

I think he is quite feasibly better than Burling, but IMO (<- Note here opinion not fact) he needs to check his ego at the door and focus on one role and do it well.

 

[strider470]

I think Ratcliffe would be happy to sponsor racing around isle of wight, or at least make sure the costs of hosting are covered  and he wants TNZ to be a well funded defense . BUT (and its a big but) he is extremely wary of  any optics of being seen to "buy" the cup, so the amount of money that flows from an Isle of Wight event to TNZ will be limited .  This is not because Ineos cannot afford to be generous but because Ineos does not want to buy the cup.   Ratcliffe wants his team to demonstrate that they won the cup on the water....or its not worth winning at all.

If TNZ is not well funded for the next cup then its a problem for all the challengers because none of them want to beat a decimated Team New Zealand. 

GD will hopefully find the money and I suspect that will determine decisions of where and how to host the defense. ratcliffe has made it clear that the decision rests with NZ.

ETNZ will never choose to defend abroad if not for a huge amount of money, and if such a choice will end up in a 1 - 1 match, it will be difficult to deny having bought direct access to the Match. If Ratcliffe really wants to win on the water, he should win the CSS first, without any shortcut.

 

[Mambo Kings]

ETNZ will never choose to defend abroad if not for a huge amount of money, and if such a choice will end up in a 1 - 1 match, it will be difficult to deny having bought direct access to the Match. If Ratcliffe really wants to win on the water, he should win the CSS first, without any shortcut.

You put Ratcliffe in a difficult position.

He admits he would love to see an AC hosted in the Solent (cant blame him for being honest about that) but emphasized that the location choice is up to NZ.

Of course he is going to sponsor hosting the event in the UK and why should he do anything other than pay an entrance fee if it is hosted in NZ.

He doesn't want to buy the cup, he wants to win it on the water....and that will not be easy because NZ are hard to beat.  

But if TNZ want a 1 vs 1 to keep more of the money for themselves and if NZ govt cant come up with money......how does Ratcliffe handle this?    Ideally, he would like 3 or more teams  to challenge and share the cost.  Do you see Italy subsidizing an event hosted in UK or NZ and some of that money flowing back to TNZ?

Ratcliffe is between a rock and a hard place if NZ put the event location out for bidding (Obviously UK will bid) .  Ultimately I dont think he will care too much either way.

 

[dg_sailingfan]

Will Ratcliffe fund the Challenger Selection Series in 2024 just like PRADA did with the PRADA CUP this year?

 

[Mambo Kings]

Will Ratcliffe fund the Challenger Selection Series in 2024 just like PRADA did with the PRADA CUP this year?

Ineos is not a consumer brand so lets be honest....the only reason he is here is to win the cup using his own money.

Prada at least can feel it is putting its brand name in front of a wealthy yachting crowd.

But he would probably throw in something to help make it happen. But lets not forget.....he is primarily a competitor and when he met Ben, he decided the challenge of bringing back a cup that was lost 150 years ago and that probably needed $200-$300m over two cycles was his kind of challenge because realistically there is nobody else in the UK who can write those kind of checks.

 

[JonRowe]

because realistically there is nobody else in the UK who can write those kind of checks.

Thats a false assumption. Across the world in many countries, there are many billionaires who could write the cheques to fund an AC team, but only a select few feel the competitive need to...

 

[IPLore]

Thats a false assumption. Across the world in many countries, there are many billionaires who could write the cheques to fund an AC team, but only a select few feel the competitive need to...

In the UK? $300 million?

Okay.

But Ratcliffe is pretty unusual .   Team UK is very lucky to have found him

 

[Nauti Buoy]

I'm going to make a BOLD PREDICTION when it comes to Emirates Team New Zealand:

They are going to win every single America's Cup that is contested in Foiling Boats.

They introduced Foiling in the lead up to AC34 and although they lost that Cup Match by the skin of their teeth everyone is playing catch to the Kiwis with their Foiling Technology ever since for sort of 8 years now.

They have some kind of Advantage when it comes to "Foiling Boats" IMO.

With what money?

 

[JonRowe]

In the UK? $300 million?

Okay.

But Ratcliffe is pretty unusual .   Team UK is very lucky to have found him

Not disputing that Jim is a great backer for Ben and Co, as he has the money and the nationalistic pride required to fund an AC team. Just saying he's not the only one with the cash, Dyson for example was higher on the times "rich list" in 2020.

 

[IPLore]

I'm going to make a BOLD PREDICTION when it comes to Emirates Team New Zealand:

They are going to win every single America's Cup that is contested in Foiling Boats.

They introduced Foiling in the lead up to AC34 and although they lost that Cup Match by the skin of their teeth everyone is playing catch to the Kiwis with their Foiling Technology ever since for sort of 8 years now.

They have some kind of Advantage when it comes to "Foiling Boats" IMO.

That is a bold prediction.

I  predict that as long as the AC continues to be held in foiling boats over 60 feet on the waterline, TNZ will eventually lose the AC to a challenger.

The law of averages and the combined budget stacked against them will eventually kick in.  But in the meantime, Peter Burling is 2 and 0......and the team is looking very strong.

 

[IPLore]

Not disputing that Jim is a great backer for Ben and Co, as he has the money and the nationalistic pride required to fund an AC team. Just saying he's not the only one with the cash, Dyson for example was higher on the times "rich list" in 2020.

Yup the times that $20bn+ overlaps with sailing is increasingly rare.

FWIW, count me a skeptic, regarding the estimates of Dyson's net worth. Brilliantly successful inventor but it has not really compounded into a succession of businesses

Ratcliffe's Ineos is throwing off cash....which he has reinvested time and again in a surprisingly successful way. Onlookers keep on expecting him to stumble and get one wrong in such a tough industry.....but thus far he has made it work and grow. + He has made at least two of his colleagues at Ineos worth over $5bn each.

Anyway....I agree with you that there is more than one with enough dough to finance a campaign.

 

[jaysper]

ETNZ will never choose to defend abroad if not for a huge amount of money, and if such a choice will end up in a 1 - 1 match, it will be difficult to deny having bought direct access to the Match. If Ratcliffe really wants to win on the water, he should win the CSS first, without any shortcut.

Agreed. I still think this is all a negotiating ploy by Dalton.

 

[JALhazmat]

Ineos is not a consumer brand so lets be honest....the only reason he is here is to win the cup using his own money.

Prada at least can feel it is putting its brand name in front of a wealthy yachting crowd.

But he would probably throw in something to help make it happen. But lets not forget.....he is primarily a competitor and when he met Ben, he decided the challenge of bringing back a cup that was lost 150 years ago and that probably needed $200-$300m over two cycles was his kind of challenge because realistically there is nobody else in the UK who can write those kind of checks.

Grenadier, Belstaff, Ineos Hygenics, plus his hotel brand are all consumer brands

 

[Zeusproject]

No they fucking didn’t. 
 

that was Bermuda or about 1 month with Land Rover BAR before  he realised it was nearly all one design and there was fuck all aero fiddling he could do  as well as he didn’t know how to design a boat. 

So still involved in there team didn’t say when !