Etchells Worlds Creeps
- Thread starter M@AYC
- Start date
Black Sox
Super Anarchist
umm... what? This is the thanks I get for handing you an awesome straight line?
BrightAyes
Banned
- Banned
- #565
SafeSail – Be Part of the Solution
safesail.org
Meat Wad
Super Anarchist
I have no Idea why, Maybe it is because they were taught respect at a young age rather than how to be an asshole from a big city.
You live in a deluded state of mind based on your prolific ranting.
Meat Wad
Super Anarchist
are you kidding me, You have a greater chance of being shot on a Calif freeway. Happens all the time, Just ask Knuckle head Newsom
shaggybaxter
Super Anarchist
Ok. Not sure how this is relevant to women being safer in sailing events. Unless you think women need to start carrying guns to regatta parties?
-Foulies? Check.
-Spare change of clothes? Check.
-Beretta Apx? Check.
-Spare clips for urban regattas? Check.
Danceswithoctopus
Cephalopod
Texas has more fatal road rage shootings than any other state by significant margin, report finds
Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.
/Hijack
Rambler
Super Anarchist
Of course, the recent events on a NY train show the danger of going to the assistance of one or more women being harrassed when they violently struggle against any attempt to restrain them.
This is the trouble with our society. There is no consistancy.
This is the trouble with our society. There is no consistancy.
tp#12
Anarchist
I don't think that a homeless guy expressing frustration and being visibly angry, possibly with a mental illness, is in any way similar to a woman getting hassled by a creep at a yacht club event. Or most anywhere else, for that matter.
The guy that was murdered by the ex-marine choking him out is an unfortunate and completely separate set of circumstances. If you're helping a woman out and you decide to put a choke hold on someone for 15 minutes, or whatever it was, then I'd suggest you've made an error of judgement and need to approach things differently and I don't think anyone here is recommending such a course of action.
Rambler
Super Anarchist
Ah yes, the double standard that goes to the heart of the problem.
The report says "a few minutes", the video suggests about three, not fifteen, the guy is violently struggling for most of the time, the passangers said they believed they were in danger, the guy had been arrested 42 times and had had an warrant out for a felony assult on a woman (so their belief was well founded).
I've had to deal with a situation where there was no easy answer with what to do with a perpertrator of violence against a women in a public place. There is no easy answer. We managed to non pysically restrain him to let the woman get away; but the minute we let him go, he went after the woman again.
When you have to deal with him from behind in a crowded train, exactly what hold should you use?
A slight misjudgement on the spur of the moment and the hero becomes the villien.
Unless you stand up for him then all the words you've typed here are meaningless.
tp#12
Anarchist
What double standard are you talking about? Do you think violence is the only option? I'm saying that non-violence is the answer.
The passenger had not attacked anyone. He didn't need to be put in a choke hold. Other passengers had chosen to simply walk away and did. And it killed him so that fact rules out the shorter timeframes you're talking about. If you know anything about that you'll know that you can choke someone out, without killing them, and they'll start breathing on their own and wake up on their own. But only if they've been released and not if you hang onto that chokehold and ... kill them. So there was no slight misjudgement, at all. It's been rightfully deemed a homicide.
If you non-physically restrained someone why do you think it's necessary to choke someone out, past the point of unconsciousness and therefore not resisting?
There are many options to be taken before you that. I don't think you're thinking very clearly on this issue.
Rambler
Super Anarchist
So now you're saying a woman being harrassed should just walk away and should not expect support from anyone else?
I was lucky in my case the anger and (until then - but not subsequently) minor violence was directed at one woman and we could (while we were there) talk him down.
This guy was in a general rage. He was unlikely to respond to mere words
I was lucky in my case the anger and (until then - but not subsequently) minor violence was directed at one woman and we could (while we were there) talk him down.
This guy was in a general rage. He was unlikely to respond to mere words
tp#12
Anarchist
I said non-violence is the answer. That's not walking away. You keep trying to build a straw man argument. It seems you do think that violence is the only option.
tp#12
Anarchist
I have, on multiple occasions in this thread, talked about even simply asking if the woman is ok. There's been plenty of other people saying the same thing and even linking to Safe Sailing and other sites describing similar, non-violent approaches.
I could comment on the tendency to go straight to authoritarian and violent type responses but I don't want to derail the thread entirely.
I could comment on the tendency to go straight to authoritarian and violent type responses but I don't want to derail the thread entirely.
tp#12
Anarchist
Rambler
Super Anarchist
Well, clearly there's more than one narrative on this. Others reproted feeling threatened. But then, it's CNN.
How do you deal with an in your face raving lunatic (who may - and in this case did - have a history of violence) without walking away. So no, it's not a strawman. You are not offering solutions, merely vague hopes.
You are dealing with someone who has had to deal with a similar situation. I did so with non violence, and I doubt I could ever use violence. It's just not me.
But the simple fact was, in the end the non violence only created a pause. With the second attack he had to be violently restrained and, when he started hurting those trying to restrain him, got even more in response.
It took four to even somewhat restrain him because they concentrated on limbs, not a choke hold and he fought like a mad man - which he was.
But for you, it's all so easy. Wrong hold, wrong decision, spur of the moment trying to help others, hang him out to dry.
tp#12
Anarchist
You're getting confused. The straw man is you saying that I was advocating walking away when I wasn't; I was advocating non-violence.
People can feel threatened, sure. He was loud, angry, slammed his jacket on the ground. He was upset at his life circumstances. People will feel uncomfortable in that situation; that's NOT justification to attack him. He didn't attack anyone, he was attacked. As I said before, other people chose to leave the carriage and did so. If he was a threat that wouldn't have happened.
In your scenario, you said you let him go... Perhaps you shouldn't have done that? Who knows, it's a difficult situation and sounds like the four people managed to restrain him without choking him out and killing him. Proving my point and not yours.
And again, you keep going for this spur of the moment, slight misjudgement angle which doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of choking someone out beyond them not resisting, because they're unconscious, and killing them.
Never have I said it's easy - another straw man. Honestly, I choose my words carefully. You should too.
tp#12
Anarchist
The guy putting the chokehold was warned he was going to kill the man and kept going. Even after he crapped himself.
"A longer video that emerged on Friday shows the three minutes and 52 seconds after the train pulled into Broadway Lafayette station on Monday at 2.30pm.
The footage begins with Penny already restraining Neely in the chokehold. For two minutes and five seconds, Neely struggled on the floor, flailing his feet.
He went limp after two minutes and six seconds, by which point a by-passer had stepped onto the train.
The man - who can be heard but is not seen - warned Penny that Neely had defecated, which he feared was a sign that he was dying.
'He's defecated on himself... you're going to kill him now,' he said.
Another man who was helping Penny restrain Neely replied that it was an old stain on Neely's trousers, and that Penny was no longer 'squeezing'.
'He's not squeezing? All right. Because after he's defecated himself that's it. You've got to let him go,' he replied.
He then warned of a 'murder charge'.
The second man turned to Neely and said: 'Hey can you hear me?'.
Met with silence, the man told Penny to stand up.
Penny does not speak, but releases Neely and springs to his feet.
The unidentified by-stander can be heard saying: 'That was one hell of a chokehold, man.'
Over the next several seconds, Penny and the other man who had been helping him attempt to put Neely in the recovery position. "
Hardly a spur of the moment mistake.
"A longer video that emerged on Friday shows the three minutes and 52 seconds after the train pulled into Broadway Lafayette station on Monday at 2.30pm.
The footage begins with Penny already restraining Neely in the chokehold. For two minutes and five seconds, Neely struggled on the floor, flailing his feet.
He went limp after two minutes and six seconds, by which point a by-passer had stepped onto the train.
The man - who can be heard but is not seen - warned Penny that Neely had defecated, which he feared was a sign that he was dying.
'He's defecated on himself... you're going to kill him now,' he said.
Another man who was helping Penny restrain Neely replied that it was an old stain on Neely's trousers, and that Penny was no longer 'squeezing'.
'He's not squeezing? All right. Because after he's defecated himself that's it. You've got to let him go,' he replied.
He then warned of a 'murder charge'.
The second man turned to Neely and said: 'Hey can you hear me?'.
Met with silence, the man told Penny to stand up.
Penny does not speak, but releases Neely and springs to his feet.
The unidentified by-stander can be heard saying: 'That was one hell of a chokehold, man.'
Over the next several seconds, Penny and the other man who had been helping him attempt to put Neely in the recovery position. "
Hardly a spur of the moment mistake.
