European Vacation

MR.CLEAN

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The lifelines actually look quite cherry, the boat is completely packed up and ready for the road, and in 14 minutes I expect to learn whether Fortis Bank has the money they need so that the officious little bastard Customs agent can bring the IMA-501 document to the officious little Customs Officer so that I can have my official bastard of a release document in hand when I pull into the shipyard to get my damned boat!

 

MR.CLEAN

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Certainly plenty of good stories in my pocket already...but here's a quick question for you European road trippers:

Zeebrugge (Flanders) to Civitavecchia (near Rome) has a lot of routing options. Last night, a bar owner suggested one I hadn't seen before: He said to avoid the mountains and stay on the fastest route without much twistiness, go toward Lyon, then cross the Alps down south where they are a narrower range. Most of the books say go through Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland. On the map, the all-france route is longer, but may be faster. Anyone done this kind of drive make a recommendation on route?

Thanks much!

 

Albatros

Super Anarchist
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Certainly plenty of good stories in my pocket already...but here's a quick question for you European road trippers:
Zeebrugge (Flanders) to Civitavecchia (near Rome) has a lot of routing options. Last night, a bar owner suggested one I hadn't seen before: He said to avoid the mountains and stay on the fastest route without much twistiness, go toward Lyon, then cross the Alps down south where they are a narrower range. Most of the books say go through Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland. On the map, the all-france route is longer, but may be faster. Anyone done this kind of drive make a recommendation on route?

Thanks much!
the option is very valid, that's what many truckers do too, certainly with a trailer behind you.

Zeebrugge > Brussels > Namur > Luxembourg > Dijon > Lyon ... either go from Lyon to the mountains or you might even go right down to the Med and follow the coast, but that might be overcooking the matter a bit.

Brussels ring can be a bitch depending on time, same for Lyon where it's better to take the outer ring

 

MR.CLEAN

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the option is very valid, that's what many truckers do too, certainly with a trailer behind you.Zeebrugge > Brussels > Namur > Luxembourg > Dijon > Lyon ... either go from Lyon to the mountains or you might even go right down to the Med and follow the coast, but that might be overcooking the matter a bit.

Brussels ring can be a bitch depending on time, same for Lyon where it's better to take the outer ring
Merci, Albatros. I reckon if we have time to kill, the Cote D'Azur route would be a lovely one to take. If not, it's straight through the tunnels from Lyon to Torino. We stayed in a great, cheap, beachfront hotel in Heist last night - once we realized we were not going to be accelerating the Customs process, it was easy to relax a bit.

 
One reason for a trucker to take the longer route via Cote d'Azur would probably be the German highway toll for large trucks (> 12 metric tons), that can make the French highway toll seem reasonable.

With Your rig the German/Austrian or German/Swiss route will probably be cheaper because you'll be saving the French toll and gas (due to roughly 250 km less). Unless of course You want to take the routes nationales and gipsy through France...

In any case crossing the Alps today is somewhat more convenient than during Hannibal's days. Either way the biggest problem should be traffic.

 

MR.CLEAN

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One reason for a trucker to take the longer route via Cote d'Azur would probably be the German highway toll for large trucks (> 12 metric tons), that can make the French highway toll seem reasonable.
With Your rig the German/Austrian or German/Swiss route will probably be cheaper because you'll be saving the French toll and gas (due to roughly 250 km less). Unless of course You want to take the routes nationales and gipsy through France...

In any case crossing the Alps today is somewhat more convenient than during Hannibal's days. Either way the biggest problem should be traffic.
DD - assuming we will generally be traveling near the speed limit and that we will be slightly bogged down on the steep roads, what do you estimate the driving times are for each route?

 

Albatros

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DD - assuming we will generally be traveling near the speed limit and that we will be slightly bogged down on the steep roads, what do you estimate the driving times are for each route?
the note on the trucks through Germany is probably correct, didn't think of that one because that toll is fairly recent, and since I never drive trucks...

did a quick routeplanner search, it's in dutch but should be easy to understand (hey, if you can handle the Coastal Flanders slang you can handle anything !)

choice is yours, the short route will be cheaper but even if it's easier now than in Hannibal's days it's still a lot of up/down, tunnels etc... depends a bit on how much oomph the car has but definitely possible (and scenic !) , the longer route is more relaxed, more flat but more expensive too

p.s. these images and the prices you see are based on a big car, didn't find the way to configure it for car+trailer, which probably in France will cost even more.

you can try this too at www.mappy.co.uk or at the viamichelin website

p.p.s. :rolleyes: : the France route shown on this pic leads you over Paris, that IS indeed the shortest route but usually we take the Luxemburg route because of the Paris Peripherique

longer.jpg

short.jpg

 
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bomvu

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I did a trip last year from UK to Lake Garda in northern Italy. We ended up going France, Netherlands, Germany, Austria Italy as it would have been about £100 more to do the direct line through France. This due to toll roads. Apparently there are a hell of a lot of them. It wasn't scientifically worked out but I did consult with two friends who live in France and travel around quite a bit by car.

The mountains through Austria are quite steep but aren't too long - shouldn't be too bad with a decent tow vehicle and it is probably worth it for the views.

Are you going to be able to get over to Cannigione for the j/24 worlds at all? If so PM me and I'll buy you guys a beer or two.

 

MR.CLEAN

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I did a trip last year from UK to Lake Garda in northern Italy. We ended up going France, Netherlands, Germany, Austria Italy as it would have been about £100 more to do the direct line through France. This due to toll roads. Apparently there are a hell of a lot of them. It wasn't scientifically worked out but I did consult with two friends who live in France and travel around quite a bit by car.
The mountains through Austria are quite steep but aren't too long - shouldn't be too bad with a decent tow vehicle and it is probably worth it for the views.

Are you going to be able to get over to Cannigione for the j/24 worlds at all? If so PM me and I'll buy you guys a beer or two.
Having just looked at the Worlds site, we should be able to get over there without a problem. We'll figure out the best party night and come have a few (dozen) drinks with ya. Thanks for the suggestion - it's a great one.

 

pipsqueak

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if you are looking for cheap lodging for the nights in france, you can stay in a gite: http://www.gites-de-france.com/gites/fr/gites_ruraux

there is a list at the hotel de ville in each town; ask at the desk.

i think you are too old to get into the youth hostels, but the gites are very variable from a room in a families house or farm; you've probably seen the signs.

lots of fun and very inexpensive.

 

magnum

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quickest & most expenisive +/- EU 280-300 Toll + road tax total = +/- EU 100,-- and if you are not afraid of a long tunnels

Zeebruge - Brussels - Luxembourg (cheap petrol) - Metz - Strassbourg - Colmar - Mulhouse - Bern - Lugano - Milan - Parma - La Spezia - Rome

Two things things you really want to avoid planning the trip are rush hour towards brussels & especially Milan

Cheaper (around EU 225) but slightly longer (100-150km plus) but no long waiting hours at the long Swiss tunnels is driving the german A61

Zeebruge - Brussels - Aachen - Karlsruhe - Munchen - Innsbruck - bolzano - Modena - Firenze etc.

Via kortrijk - lille - reims - dyon - lyon - grenoble - torino is expensive EU 379 according to michelin

All prices are for car + caravan if according to there webiste "Train with overall height under 2 metres and GVW of towing vehicle not exceeding 3.5 tonnes you qualify as a car & have the cheap toll http://www.autoroutes.fr/en/preparatives/v...sification.html

toll prices in france http://www.autoroutes.fr/

 
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DD - assuming we will generally be traveling near the speed limit and that we will be slightly bogged down on the steep roads, what do you estimate the driving times are for each route?
I haven't driven the route recently and I wonder if I ever have. Route planners says it's roughly 1600 kms on the direct route mentioned above (including French highway tolls and the Swiss vignette) and 1770 via Munich (including the Austrian vignette). So realistically - being the madass driver You probably are (I'll warn my friends around Munich to stay off the highways as You pass) - at an average of maybe 80 km/hs = roughly 20 hours on the short and 22 hours on the long route.

I would calculate no more than 80 km/hs average, traffic jams not considered, because during the working week (Mon thru Fri) there are many trucks on German roads and with a trailer You will be stuck behind them for long stretches. The even crazier German car drivers tend to dash by at 140 km/h and more in tight columns leaving You few chances to pass the trucks without being rear-ended. Seriously, watch out for those mo' fuckers on the German Autobahn. Many have three times the horsepower of their IQ.

Weekends only few trucks are allowed on German roads so You should be moving a little faster.

The ascent and descent over the Alps shouldn't slow you down too much if you have a decent size towing vehicle.

If you take the Munich route, avoid the weekend traffic to the mountains (Fri afternoons nights).

 

MR.CLEAN

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That was a hell of a night. Made it to Pisa, the only place we could find where we could actually park the rig - a fucking Holiday Inn!

Lots of stories, writing them up now, actually. Thanks for all the advice so far - y'all have been especially helpful navigating what has been a surprisingly difficult ride.

Tomorrow to Sardinia!

 

bstollman

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That was a hell of a night. Made it to Pisa, the only place we could find where we could actually park the rig - a fucking Holiday Inn!
Lots of stories, writing them up now, actually. Thanks for all the advice so far - y'all have been especially helpful navigating what has been a surprisingly difficult ride.

Tomorrow to Sardinia!
A holiday inn in Pisa....ha ha ha ha....i love irony. what's next? Starbucks on Sardinia? p.w.g.d 6200 Sunday please.

 
That was a hell of a night. Made it to Pisa, the only place we could find where we could actually park the rig - a fucking Holiday Inn!
Lots of stories, writing them up now, actually. Thanks for all the advice so far - y'all have been especially helpful navigating what has been a surprisingly difficult ride.

Tomorrow to Sardinia!
Hi Clean,

don't forget: boarding to ferries 2 hours prior departure!!

See you soon on the most magnificant island in the Meds.

My offer for a stop over near lake constance on your way back is still valid, trailer could be parked in my club (safe and for free).

Don't get sea-sick on the ferry :rolleyes:

GT

 
Hi Mr. Clean,

just wanted to add one more famous (?) European event - but you will miss it as it's on the last weekend of the Worlds - maybe some anarchists like this information on recycled ACC yachts:

Run Um Bodensee (Lake of Cosntance)

06. June

approx. 90 km (yes we measure in km not nm!)

500 boats

sailing during the night

Highlights should be 2 older ACC (GER 72 & GBR 52) yachts with special keel-design due to water depth in marinas there.

Attached a link to the thread on sailinganarchy.de - even if you can't translate into your mother-language scroll down page 1 and look at the pictures with the funny keel designs.

http://sailinganarchy.de/board/viewtopic.php?t=340

There are already bets if these two boats will make the full trip or if they break in 2 pieces on their way.

GT

 

MarkJames

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if you are hittign problems with the GPS, make sure the settings it uses for route planning and the like are as close as possible to your actaul config.At 50' long sounds to me like you need to try and tell the Sat nav you are driving a truck rather than a car. it should then factor in those dimensions into the suggested routes. I think the Garmin Nuvi's allow you todo that, so it shoudl work OK as they use a common nav platform

 

MR.CLEAN

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Uh Clean,
Just a heads-up, Vincenzo Onorato (Mascalzone Latino) owns Moby Lines
Well, that explains it then! There are two Mescalzone Farr 40s here in the shipyard right in Marina Porto Cervo - the old one and the new one, I guess. The top teams here are incredibly well-organized and intense. They've got almost any trick part that they can get away with under the rules, and from what I hear, they push each other so hard that their level is just super high compared to other nations' teams.

 
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